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Ski Instructor Shortages

jimtransition

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I am not confusing my argument. Very few restaurants that serve their own wine allow you to bring your own. I'm aware some do, in fact the Moose & Pepper Bistro in Niagra Falls, Ontario allows you to bring your own wine. That is a choice (assuming the local liquor laws allow it) made by each restaurant. At those restaurants that do not allow you to bring your own wine, you do not have that option. It is their decision. As for ski rentals, or to go food, off mountain shops do not conduct their revenue producing activity on the mountain. They are off mountain.
You may not have confused your argument, but I am confused by it. Do you just enjoy faceless corporations making obscene amounts of money from the work of poorly paid employees? I don't really see any upside to the status quo for anyone except shareholders.
 
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SkiSchoolPros

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Your assumption here is that the lift ticket covers all those expenses plus the profit needed to re-invest and compensate shareholders, and that the lift ticket covers losses in lean years like this one. Profitability and return on investment is determined by the entire product mix across the resort, over an average of many years, both holidays and midweek, not just one department at one point in time.

This isn't Europe. Lessons do not subsidize the resort anymore than hamburgers subsidize the resort. They are different departmental income streams.
Seems like you are talking out of both both sides of your mouth. Is it your opinion that we should look at each department individually, or the resort's profit as a whole?

When we were told that the NET profit margin of ski school was 54.6% for the 2014-15 season, as way of justification for such a high margin, we were also told that was used to ~help out other parts of the resort. Of course, when you receive lots of your lift revenue up front, charge $220 for a day ticket, $6 for a hot chocolate, $23 for a chicken sandwich and see your stock go up 20 X in 12 years, it's hard to believe any departments lose money.
 

mister moose

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You may not have confused your argument, but I am confused by it. Do you just enjoy faceless corporations making obscene amounts of money from the work of poorly paid employees? I don't really see any upside to the status quo for anyone except shareholders.
I haven't made any value judgements, I'm just explaining how things are vs how we might wish they were.
Seems like you are talking out of both both sides of your mouth. Is it your opinion that we should look at each department individually, or the resort's profit as a whole?
Depends on what question you're asking. In general though, unless you know how the company allocates administrative and general overhead type expenses, you are flying blind making comments about an individual department's profitability.
When we were told that the NET profit margin of ski school was 54.6% for the 2014-15 season, as way of justification for such a high margin, we were also told that was used to ~help out other parts of the resort. Of course, when you receive lots of your lift revenue up front, charge $220 for a day ticket, $6 for a hot chocolate, $23 for a chicken sandwich and see your stock go up 20 X in 12 years, it's hard to believe any departments lose money.
So you're basically saying with all these high prices they're making money hand over fist everywhere. Sure seems like it based on the high prices of day tickets, food, and lessons. However last year Vail's income was 1.91 billion, and net income before taxes was 125 million. Thats a margin of 6.5%. So even though the margin on an individual product might be higher, or an individual department might be higher, the overall rate of return on each dollar of sales is 6.5%. 2019 was better year, and Vail achieved a 17.5% pre tax margin. Skiing is a volatile business, it depends on the discretionary dollar of its customers, it is subject to bad winters, and economic downturns. Car insurance for example is comparatively far less volatile, and can live on lower but more steady margins.

There are two factors worth discussing. One is the price of lessons. Although the price seems high, clearly a lot of people are paying it. The flip side is to what extent a high price for lessons drags down the growth of the sport. Let's not forget that much cheaper skiing can be had at smaller local hills. Vail resorts are top tier resort prices. In any event, IMHO lesson prices are both market driven and resort wide cost driven. Two, instructor wages are so low comparatively they are not driven by lesson prices. They are driven by supply and demand of the instructor workforce. Is this good for those folks making a living by teaching skiing? Of course not. As I illustrated earlier, you can make far more per hour, and get far more paid hours every week working at the Post Office. There are too many instructors that make the choice of the fun job working outside and taking less hours for less pay, instead of the tedium of the Post Office (Or any other job, the Post Office is just an example). There is no ski instructor union to collectively bargain for wages and benefits. And it's not only seasonal, it's a short season at most resorts. I can only imagine how short the season is at Beech Mountain, NC, or the Pocono resorts. It's not even close to a 6 month job.

But let's imagine Vail Resorts makes far more money at far higher margins. They still won't increase instructor pay on that basis, because instructor pay is determined by the instructor labor market, not by what someone thinks they should get paid, or how much money (or how little) the company makes. This year hourly resort pay went up all over New England, not because of profitability, but because of tighter supply of available labor.
 

GB_Ski

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You just answered the whole thing. It’s a highly controlled “market”. So controlled, it’s not a “market” at all.
Next up for discussion, the diamond “market”?
This is the best summary of the whole VR thing. My reaction to the word "market" when spoken by corporations like VR.

1641836850837.png
 

Dave Marshak

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Vail knows better than anyone what “market” means. As in market power and market concentration. Everyone who has been cheering about multi-passes the last several years are the ones who don’t understand markets.

dm
 
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SkiSchoolPros

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@mister moose https://www.businessinsider.com/bid...itation-consumers-workers-corporations-2022-1
When ski schools regularly sell out because of instructor shortages, a free market offers more compensation to attract more instructors while a monopolist/monopsonist middleman simply raises prices without giving more to instructors.

@Dave Marshak @GB_Ski @James You have hit the nail on the head. Now to convince the USFS that they should serve the interests of Biden, the tax payers and general public rather than just the Ski Corp shareholders https://mailchi.mp/nsaa/2022-jan-usfs-chief?e=683a38366d
 

anders_nor

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locally they stuffed it here with covids and shutdowns etc last few years, so the good ones found other jobs for winter. they just threw them under the bus previous years.
I witnessd the gathering and group training of instructors here last week, a surprising ammount of them couldnt even carve a turn on a blue/red run.

Another place here I know they made summer activiities to keep them occupied all year around and pray proper wages, and they still have excellenet staff, that has been there for years, the training for new instructors there was hiiigh.

Kinda interesting approaches and seeing the differences and what they yield
 

Bolder

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The flip side is to what extent a high price for lessons drags down the growth of the sport.

^^This. I do not understand why more US ski resorts, big and small, don't look at lessons as part of their marketing.

Take our favorite ski station in Europe, Val Gardena. Private lesson adult prices range from 45 to 70 euros an hour, depending on season and the time of day. You get a 15% discount by booking online in advance. At Vail, a private 3 hour lesson is...wait for it...$797. $266 an hour, plus tip (no or nominal tipping in Italy, thanks very much).

Are you really getting 4-5x better instruction from the PSIA than from the SSI? I don't think so. I've taken a lesson at Val G, and I've taken lessons at big Western US resorts, and frankly there's no difference.

Ski instructors in Western Europe earn 40-50 euros an hour, plus insurance/medical costs born by the ski stations. That means Val Gardena is subsidizing lessons, or at least making zero profit. But it adds to the overall experience and encourages people to level up and return year after year. It's just another example of how Europe sees skiing as an integral part of the regional economy and figures out ways to make it sustainable, climate change aside etc.

I am assuming that for Vail, they have plenty of business at $800 for a morning of lessons, and thus choose to keep the prices and system the way it is. I'm sure the incremental profits and exponential headache of allowing independent instructors is not something Vail wants to deal with.
 

James

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Vail knows better than anyone what “market” means
Maybe in a global sense. You really have to wonder how their centralized Politburo meetings make decisions for local areas. Hardly a response to the needs of the micro market of the actual individual ski area. “Economies of scale” can often waste or lose amounts no previous local manager would tolerate. Meh, another meeting, another idea that sounds good. Fail up.

I guess it’s all a wash once the pass is sold, people ski a few times at one place and move on. Rinse and repeat.
 
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SkiSchoolPros

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^^This. I do not understand why more US ski resorts, big and small, don't look at lessons as part of their marketing.

Take our favorite ski station in Europe, Val Gardena. Private lesson adult prices range from 45 to 70 euros an hour, depending on season and the time of day. You get a 15% discount by booking online in advance. At Vail, a private 3 hour lesson is...wait for it...$797. $266 an hour, plus tip (no or nominal tipping in Italy, thanks very much).

Are you really getting 4-5x better instruction from the PSIA than from the SSI? I don't think so. I've taken a lesson at Val G, and I've taken lessons at big Western US resorts, and frankly there's no difference.

Ski instructors in Western Europe earn 40-50 euros an hour, plus insurance/medical costs born by the ski stations. That means Val Gardena is subsidizing lessons, or at least making zero profit. But it adds to the overall experience and encourages people to level up and return year after year. It's just another example of how Europe sees skiing as an integral part of the regional economy and figures out ways to make it sustainable, climate change aside etc.

I am assuming that for Vail, they have plenty of business at $800 for a morning of lessons, and thus choose to keep the prices and system the way it is. I'm sure the incremental profits and exponential headache of allowing independent instructors is not something Vail wants to deal with.
Helps explain why 12% of the French population skis (and triple that for Switzerland and Austria) compared to less than 5% in the US.

Fwiw, you quoted the off peak private lesson price. Peak is over $900 and many peak periods have sold out this season leaving a number of potential new skiers on their first ski trip with no instruction option. Of course, instructors are paid the same hourly peak or off peak.

The difference with "small" group lessons (up to 6) is even more stark. I see kids 7-teen full day at $453 not including lift, helmet, skis, tax or tip this weekend. A few years ago it was half that for the max 4 product. Now over $300 for 3 hours for 3-4 year olds. A single kids instructor could be teaching $2,400+ of revenue and getting paid by VR about $100 for the day. There is a reason Biden says that capitalism without competition is EXPLOITATION.

When you are making those sorts of monopoly profits, why bother to allow competition to help grow the sport or make it more safe if the gov has authorized your monopoly?

For a while after https://skiplaylive.com/outdoor-news/ski-news/fair-wages-for-instructors-slam-vail-resorts/
wages edged up slightly, but the gap between real wages, cost of mountain living and lesson prices has increased even more in recent years. The government needs to allow competition to serve the public’s long term interests.
 
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geepers

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Helps explain why 12% of the French population skis (and triple that for Switzerland and Austria) compared to less than 5% in the US.

Fwiw, you quoted the off peak private lesson price. Peak is over $900 and many peak periods have sold out this season leaving a number of potential new skiers on their first ski trip with no instruction option. Of course, instructors are paid the same hourly peak or off peak.

The difference with "small" group lessons (up to 6) is even more stark. I see kids 7-teen full day at $453 not including lift, helmet, skis, tax or tip this weekend. A few years ago it was half that for the max 4 product. Now over $300 for 3 hours for 3-4 year olds. A single kids instructor could be teaching $2,400+ of revenue and getting paid by VR about $100 for the day. There is a reason Biden says that capitalism without competition is EXPLOITATION.

When you are making those sorts of monopoly profits, why bother to allow competition to help grow the sport or make it more safe if the gov has authorized your monopoly?

For a while after https://skiplaylive.com/outdoor-news/ski-news/fair-wages-for-instructors-slam-vail-resorts/
wages edged up slightly, but the gap between real wages, cost of mountain living and lesson prices has increased even more in recent years. The government needs to allow competition to serve the public’s long term interests.

Yeah, kind of think the small size of Switzerland, the fact that 58% is mountainous and it has 348 ski resorts in country of 41,285 km² has more to do with it than USA ski school monopolies.

1641974645997.png


Similar story for Austria. 60% mountainous, 437 resorts, 83,879 km².
1641975406877.png


Whereas USA is 9.834 million km² and has a mere 527 ski resorts.

But really, so many people here agree with your main point. You are (mostly) preaching to the choir.

If you wish to change the current situation then there's possibly a few more fruitful activities that could be pursued:
1. Write angry letters to major daily newspapers
2. Form a lobby group and lobby relevant state and federal legislatures
3. Foment revolution to overthrow the entire imperialist, capitalist regime and, once having gained supreme executive power, issue a proclamation outlawing the local monopolistic ski school practices of resorts. If you are going to all that trouble could you also fix a few other possibly more important items?
 

Rod9301

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Ski areas are not a monopoly. The ones on forest service land compete with those on private land. Yes, I know many are on public lands, but they do still compete with each other.

I'd be careful about using numbers on ski school profit such as that pie chart. There are many ways to allocate expenses and overhead, and what is really going to matter is the entire company's net profit. That isn't going to get any regulator's attention.

Let's look at another product. The fountain soda the resort charges $3 or $4 for costs about 15 cents for the cup and 20 cents for the syrup. The water is right out of the tap and a filter. Figure the profit margin on that - are you going to start a campaign on unfair soda prices? (Take a look at coffee, hot chocolate and french fries while you're at it)
Yes they are a monopoly, and it doesn't matter how you allocate the cost, when ski instructors get about 15 percent of what ski areas charge consumers
 

Rod9301

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This isn't Europe. Lessons do not subsidize the resort anymore than hamburgers subsidize the resort. They are different departmental income streams.

Please list all the other permit holders at Vail, Breckenridge, Mount Snow or Killington that operate competitive activities.

According to whom? Your proposal materially reduces the income to the resort for all clients that shift to your alternate ski school.

The rafting operator does not create the resource whereas the ski operator has to cut the trails, install the lifts, build lodges, and make snow.

Competition is not operating on someone else's premises. Competition is operating on your own premises. But since you feel so strongly you are correct, it should be easy to make an application to the Forest Service and get a permit to open your alternative Ski School on Vail's leased land.
Ok, so what ski area do you work for?

Because your arguments are so one sided.
 

raytseng

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But really, so many people here agree with your main point. You are (mostly) preaching to the choir.

If you wish to change the current situation then there's possibly a few more fruitful activities that could be pursued:
1. Write angry letters to major daily newspapers
2. Form a lobby group and lobby relevant state and federal legislatures
3. Foment revolution to overthrow the entire imperialist, capitalist regime and, once having gained supreme executive power, issue a proclamation outlawing the local monopolistic ski school practices of resorts. If you are going to all that trouble could you also fix a few other possibly more important items?

Completely agree.
It would seem to me if the "ski school pros" are ready to strikeout and launch their 1man shops, and it's only the regulation that's holding them back; they should already have their groomed client lists who pay for $1000 privates direct as a resource.

It would suggest that one should be working on those well-heeled clients to be your allies as they have the influence/power and the strings to pull in the capitalist regime; rather than us in the peanut gallery who are already basically on your side and just bantering.

I've overheard the discussions on the the gondolas between privates and instructors and those client's lifestyle. their perspective of money/power is beyond our view; and they are not wasting their time trolling around in our free internet forum. We talk about buying and selling a used pair of skis for $500. They talk about buying and selling ski companies for $500m.
 
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Ken_R

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Helps explain why 12% of the French population skis (and triple that for Switzerland and Austria) compared to less than 5% in the US.

Fwiw, you quoted the off peak private lesson price. Peak is over $900 and many peak periods have sold out this season leaving a number of potential new skiers on their first ski trip with no instruction option. Of course, instructors are paid the same hourly peak or off peak.

The difference with "small" group lessons (up to 6) is even more stark. I see kids 7-teen full day at $453 not including lift, helmet, skis, tax or tip this weekend. A few years ago it was half that for the max 4 product. Now over $300 for 3 hours for 3-4 year olds. A single kids instructor could be teaching $2,400+ of revenue and getting paid by VR about $100 for the day. There is a reason Biden says that capitalism without competition is EXPLOITATION.

When you are making those sorts of monopoly profits, why bother to allow competition to help grow the sport or make it more safe if the gov has authorized your monopoly?

For a while after https://skiplaylive.com/outdoor-news/ski-news/fair-wages-for-instructors-slam-vail-resorts/
wages edged up slightly, but the gap between real wages, cost of mountain living and lesson prices has increased even more in recent years. The government needs to allow competition to serve the public’s long term interests.

I cant afford to work for Vail (seems one needs to be well off to do so specially as a Ski Instructor or be willing to live in a cave) but even if I could I would not at least not as a ski instructor and contribute to keeping their monopoly alive. Let them find their sheep somewhere else. Seems they are running out. There are plenty of other good jobs where you can work part time on your own and earn more then you can ski on your own time and have fun.
 

HardDaysNight

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I cant afford to work for Vail
Even if you could afford to do so financially it appears to be more difficult to arrange than one might think. Today I ran into an old pal who was free-skiing at PCMR. He worked as an instructor here for more than consecutive 20 years, LIII with a decent list of private clients. He’s married to a Kiwi and spends our summer teaching in NZ. He didn’t return to the US last season because of Covid and so, despite his long history of employment at the resort, had to reapply from scratch to instruct this season. He put in his application early in November and as of today’s date has not heard back from the ski school mandarins. Yes, he has been in contact with them on multiple occasions but no one seems to be able to make any progress. This while Vail continues to moan about staff shortages and the impossibility of hiring skilled staff! The reality is that the company is run by inept, clueless and venal shitbags.
 
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SkiSchoolPros

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Yeah, kind of think the small size of Switzerland, the fact that 58% is mountainous and it has 348 ski resorts in country of 41,285 km² has more to do with it than USA ski school monopolies.

View attachment 154866

Similar story for Austria. 60% mountainous, 437 resorts, 83,879 km².
View attachment 154867

Whereas USA is 9.834 million km² and has a mere 527 ski resorts.

But really, so many people here agree with your main point. You are (mostly) preaching to the choir.

If you wish to change the current situation then there's possibly a few more fruitful activities that could be pursued:
1. Write angry letters to major daily newspapers
2. Form a lobby group and lobby relevant state and federal legislatures
3. Foment revolution to overthrow the entire imperialist, capitalist regime and, once having gained supreme executive power, issue a proclamation outlawing the local monopolistic ski school practices of resorts. If you are going to all that trouble could you also fix a few other possibly more important items?
I mostly agree with you.

Recently, I have been more focused on a much more meaningful project, but started posting here again when there seemed to be more anti-monopoly sentiment as the skiing public sees firsthand the problems it has created. When I first started anti-monopoly discussions, there was much less consensus that it was even a problem...I would reference some links on epicski, but...
 

geepers

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I mostly agree with you.

Recently, I have been more focused on a much more meaningful project, but started posting here again when there seemed to be more anti-monopoly sentiment as the skiing public sees firsthand the problems it has created. When I first started anti-monopoly discussions, there was much less consensus that it was even a problem...I would reference some links on epicski, but...

Admire your willingness to joust with windmills. :golfclap:

There's a way to get whatever we want. Not many know about it as it is a secret... remember, you read it here 1st...



Ask.



However, there's a few additional points to that. Can be summed up as "Ask intelligently."

The 1st point about that is to ask some-one who can actually help.

Good luck! :crossfingers:

P.S. I'd just like to see ski instructors (and many others) get paid a decent wage. Whether the best way to achieve that is ski school competition within a resort or legislated minimum wages is open to discussion.
 

mister moose

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You just answered the whole thing. It’s a highly controlled “market”. So controlled, it’s not a “market” at all.
Sure it is. You are free to sell your labor to whomever you choose. The higher bidder might not be a ski resort. It might be an accounting firm. It might be a night nurse position at the hospital. It might be an electrician.
I am assuming that for Vail, they have plenty of business at $800 for a morning of lessons, and thus choose to keep the prices and system the way it is. I'm sure the incremental profits and exponential headache of allowing independent instructors is not something Vail wants to deal with.
Of course. If it was worth it, they'd do it.
Ok, so what ski area do you work for?

Because your arguments are so one sided.
I have a business background.

@SkiSchoolPros The industry is running on leases that date back to the 50's and earlier. Many run 99 years. You have a lot of inertia to overcome to change the operating terms of those leases. They are after all legal agreements. You don't get to burst in and change them, and claim rights to use assets the lessees have paid for because it sounds good to you. But I could be wrong. Give it a try.
 

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