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Ski Instructor Shortages

HardDaysNight

Making fresh tracks
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Park City, UT
Completely predictable responses by keyboard warriors seeking to satisfy their apparently boundless ego’s by trashing others. Yes of course that 20 something L-2 who was a competitive collegiate and junior racer will never become worthy in your estimation and will no doubt join the ranks of the least skilled now populating all of American skidom. I dunno somehow it worked out for me, I’m a full time pro in management with salary and bonuses. My former students, and all the instructors I’ve hired and trained over the years will be so disappointed to learn that I started out simply as a hobbyist who could somehow find his way through NCAA Div l race courses with an occasional respectable time then taught and coached as a mere hobby before going full time. Where do I go to turn in my certs, obviously I’m not worthy…
This self-aggrandizing harangue isn’t worth a detailed response. You know nothing about my background in professional, competitive skiing, any more than I have any clue about yours, and neither is relevant to the points I and others have brought up in this thread.
 

geepers

Skiing the powder
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Wanaka, New Zealand
Would you employ a plumber who is unqualified and does it as a hobby?

Now that would depend. If I had a Level 1 or Level 2 plumbing issue then I'd probably be happy with an L1 or L2 plumber. Assuming plumbers are certified in some sort of rank. What would count is that the plumber was certified to deal with the issue. At which point it should not matter if they are recycled worker (with an unhealthy obsession in plumbing), a gapper or a grizzled veteran with decades of experience. Be nice to get the veteran but straightforward issues that won't generally be needed.
ogsmile
This also assumes that I can recognise an L1/2 plumbing issue - but let's not go there. :facepalm:
 

Chris V.

Making fresh tracks
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Truckee
Concerning the discussion of USFS leases--those who have had the opportunity to work much with the USFS will know that it's a profoundly dysfunctional agency. I wouldn't look to the agency to do much that's effective in the way of looking out for the interests of the public, whatever one may conceive those to be. This issue transcends any actual lease language.
 

HDSkiing

You’re Sliding On-Snow; Don’t Over-Think it!
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Nothing I wrote was directed at anyone personally, sorry if you took offense.
Thank you for saying that, its the sign of a gentlemen.

I spend a lot of time with new ski staff as well as the more seasoned pro's. We celebrate their successes and do everything we can to set them up for success. Their passion shows through in so many ways, they love what they do and can't wait to learn more, and go back and do it some more.

So it's hurtful for many of them, who come to this site excited about their new careers looking for information, or even mentorship to read about how they are so low skilled, are far from top flight or somehow ripping off the customer at the behest of their corporate overlords. To listen to some like @HardDaysNight and a few others go on and on about the terrible state of affairs that American Ski Schools are in because those of us who manage, work and train in them are so woefully lacking in our abilities with the proof being that we accept low pay. I'm amazed I can ski down the bunny hill based on this "internet criteria."

I have seen this phenomena more times that I can count: people want to ski with people they like, your awesome technical skills or the color of your pin (or your lack of one) are irrelevant to those guests, I don't care what they do in Europe, and neither do the guests skiing in the USA. Sure there are plenty of others who need that high level coaching or believe they do cuz you know, they sit in their basements with Cheetos crumbs all over the keyboard hanging out in forums talking about how great they are...but I digress.

The mountains are made for those with passion, the internet is for the posers.
 
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Erik Timmerman

So much better than a pro
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Nov 12, 2015
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6,355
So I was talking-to a friend yesterday who is assistant ski school director at an independently run ski area in the Northeast and he told me he is only getting $18 an hour! So it's not just hobbyists. He's pretty disillusioned with the whole thing. He's a young excellent skier and instructor who IMHO will be on the National Demo Team someday.
 

justplanesteve

Getting off the lift
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Elmira, NY
I'm sure they pay a "reasonable" "license" fee, but what makes you thknk "reasonable" means cheap?

You are welcome to make any argument you care to, but have the courtesy to do so on its own merits, not by spinning something i posted, and placing it out of context to create a straw man argument. I was stunned that you took my comments in any way to imply cheap???

There are salient factors to various commercial arrangements. I noted some, and placed them in quotes to indicate that the absolute metric of any was nebulous. (put another way: subject to negotiation if anyone gets to that point. However, fundametally not so one sided as to prevent vibrant competition)

smt
 

Ken_R

Living the Dream
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Denver, CO
Is this a bad thing? Does starting out as a “hobbyist” make you less capable? Most of the readers on this forum fall into this category and most, with their obvious passion for the sport, would likely make awesome instructors if they chose to go that path. In fact how does one become a ”pro” without going through a hobbyist stage?

Why is it so hard for some to grasp the idea that money is not the driving force behind what others choose to do? Nor is it a concern among many who teach how much profit the ski company gets. These are basic truths that run across all professions where the passion for the job is the driving principle. All the rest, like obscure federal land licensing processes are mere noise that will remain meaningless to those of us going to the mountain to ski, and pursue something we love and, gasp, share it with others without a profit motive.

That is very very true indeed. I started out as a hobbyist in my profession. The passion is key. I am not wired to do things only for money. It was a component and I steered into a more profitable niche of the business but I was mainly focused on perfecting my craft. Always improving always evolving even today.

All that said clients are paying for a service and when there is a HUGE disparity between what a client is paying and what the service provider is being paid that is when problems arise. I have seen it happen in my field where the client is being charged (hypothetically) $500,000 by the agency for the production of a commercial and the production company is being paid $50,000 for the production of the commercial. That is the problem with Vail mainly (lots of independent ski hills across the country dont do this) in that they charge an arm and a leg for a service/product and pay their employees crap. A lot of times the service/product doesnt suffer because of it (credit to those on the ground actually providing the service, there are some amazing people out there) but it is not sustainable. That is the issue with ski schools at the big resorts today.

Some are trying to suggest solutions, all I know is most instructors I have come across are awesome, their skill is not the issue. It is the system they operate in and even if they are extremely passionate about skiing at some point they have to deal with the system and the system with them.
 

HardDaysNight

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…your awesome technical skills or the color of your pin (or your lack of one) are irrelevant to those guests, I don't care what they do in Europe, and neither do the guests skiing in the USA. Sure there are plenty of others who need that high level coaching or believe they do cuz you know, they sit in their basements with Cheetos crumbs all over the keyboard hanging out in forums talking about how great they are...but I digress.
This speaks for itself. Are you really a ski school director at a significant resort?
 
Thread Starter
TS
SkiSchoolPros

SkiSchoolPros

Impact Ecosystem- ie.Money with Meaning
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This^^^^^
The USFS allows resorts to operate ski schools in exactly the same way that resorts on private property (which are probably the majority of resorts) operate. It's ridiculous to think that would change based on the interests of ski school customers, which are maybe less than 10% of the less than 5% of Americans who ski.

dm
Many European resorts are on private land and most of the big ones have multiple ski schools and restaurant operators. The USFS can and should do the same on publically owned land in light of Joe Biden’s view that capitalism without competition is exploitation and the concept that public land should bebefit the masses rather than a few.
 

mister moose

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Become an instructor. Pass, clinics, pro deals, locker and a huge network of ski friends.


And here is a great illustration of why instructor pay is low. (Snipped from the Skiing Hacks thread) Become an instructor to get the locker and make friends. Nowhere in there is the determination to score large wages.

Would you employ a plumber who is unqualified and does it as a hobby?
Is there a single plumber working as a hobby in the entire country? I don't think so. "Hey Joe, want to go golfing?" "No, I'd rather go work on my neighbor's leaky toilet on a sunny Saturday for $15", said no one ever. Never compete with a hobbyist and expect to make decent money. That doesn't mean you shouldn't do it and arrange your life to accommodate that desire if that's what you want to do. Lots of talented and motivated artists and musicians out there making low wages too. Just go in recognizing you are competing with a large number of hobbyists who are interested in reducing the cost of their hobby, they are not interested in making money from their hobby. Not only is it a hobby, it is a hobby in a discretionary activity. No one has to ski. We all need to flush toilets and wash dishes in the sink.
 

justplanesteve

Getting off the lift
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Elmira, NY
Would you employ a plumber who is unqualified and does it as a hobby?

Unqualified - of course not.

How about "un-credentialed"?
We all know that not all credentialed creatures are qualified.
Many who are qualified are not credentialed.

Anecdotal:
One of the great things about living in NY state is that anyone can register a business and hold out for hire as an electrician or plumber. There's more than a few who do it as a sideline. My house addition was wired by a guy whose profession was (he died) NY cop/SWAT team sniper. He kept a full schedule of weekend and off-days work, at stipend rates, if you could get on his list. New work and rehab does require inspection. Until a few years ago, as a lawyer, too; after an "apprenticeship" & passing the bar. (A few years before that, preachers could hire out as medical professionals. But that is straying beside my point. :) )

Anyway, re: plumbing and electrical a few people are ill-served. As some are with experiences with the credentialed as well. Mostly, the quality is fine and in some cases "better" in terms of the whole service experience. Most "hobbyists" know what they should work on and what they shouldn't. "Professionals" are the same way...... :)

I'd say that in many fields, find the guy who can afford to do anything else, but is doing it from passion, keeps current and effective because of the passion, attends clinics & works to attain testing levels in some form of acreditation in their field, and that other people report good experiences. That's often a retired guy, or a full time highly paid professional in another field who can't stop trying to prosletyze for the thing they really love as a lightly compensated hobby.
 
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Nancy Hummel

Ski more, talk less.
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The reality is that resorts need part time instructors.
The volume of guests during Christmas, President’s Day and spring break creates a need for instructors.

I teach peak part time at Snowmass. Yes, I love my pass, locker, clinics and friends. I started skiing in my 30’s and have my Level 2. I taught 140 hours last year, most of those hours are request privates. I know many “hobbyists” who work very hard on their skiing and who come from other successful careers and give the guests a great experience.

I think the wage issue is much more complicated than blaming it on hobbyists.
 

HDSkiing

You’re Sliding On-Snow; Don’t Over-Think it!
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This speaks for itself. Are you really a ski school director at a significant resort?
Since you asked…I manage a staff of a couple hundred hobbyists, many with full certs, several former collegiate racers, one X-Games (Hobbyist coach) & many seasoned pros with lots of hobby-hours on the clock plus all the low skilled non-certed newbie hobbyists that I foist on the unsuspecting public as I pick their pockets.

Although a hobbyist I’m a full time salaried and nicely compensated second in command (we stick together) who does all the hiring, most of the firing, coordinates the training and leads much of it. Occasionally they let me out to teach, but with my hobbyist background, as you know, (requiring me to turn in all of my USSA/PSIA/AASI certs since I didn’t start as a pro at age 8) my students suffer from my lack of abilities while being charged loan shark rates, which is the norm all across the whitened plain, but at our little insignificant mountain, all 12K feet of it, we still charge about half of what you would pay at a VR “significant“ school And yes @HardDaysNight our guests who show up by the hundreds on busy days to take Never-Ever/Novice/Intermediate Lessons never ask about the color of your pin, they’re more interested in your personality and you helping them learn, which we hobbyists call outcome based learning.

Although a couple times a year I will have someone show up on a private request asking for at least a L-2 or a 3. Obviously, like you, they are on to our scam…
 
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mister moose

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The reality is that resorts need part time instructors.
The volume of guests during Christmas, President’s Day and spring break creates a need for instructors.

I teach peak part time at Snowmass. Yes, I love my pass, locker, clinics and friends. I started skiing in my 30’s and have my Level 2. I taught 140 hours last year, most of those hours are request privates. I know many “hobbyists” who work very hard on their skiing and who come from other successful careers and give the guests a great experience.

I think the wage issue is much more complicated than blaming it on hobbyists.
I'm not talking about quality of instruction, dedication, or even licensing/credentials. (Obviously those can vary) It's not personal. And it affects not just hobbyists (Hobbyist meaning anyone who is not in it for a meaningful profit) but it affects professionals too trying to compete in the same marketplace.

I'm talking about
1) Supply and demand.
2) Financial motivation of a hobbyist
3) Lack of an 8 hour day, but this really is a subset of #1.

It's really that simple. The full time instructor who gets his/her majority of income from instructing over a lifetime is competing with others who came from successful careers. How much upward wage pressure does those others who came from successful careers create?

Where would I make more money? Teaching skiing? Or teaching law? Or teaching medicine? How many hobbyists from other careers are teaching medicine? I'm going to guess near zero.
 

LiquidFeet

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And here is a great illustration of why instructor pay is low. (Snipped from the Skiing Hacks thread) Become an instructor to get the locker and make friends. Nowhere in there is the determination to score large wages.


Is there a single plumber working as a hobby in the entire country? I don't think so. "Hey Joe, want to go golfing?" "No, I'd rather go work on my neighbor's leaky toilet on a sunny Saturday for $15", said no one ever. Never compete with a hobbyist and expect to make decent money. That doesn't mean you shouldn't do it and arrange your life to accommodate that desire if that's what you want to do. Lots of talented and motivated artists and musicians out there making low wages too. Just go in recognizing you are competing with a large number of hobbyists who are interested in reducing the cost of their hobby, they are not interested in making money from their hobby. Not only is it a hobby, it is a hobby in a discretionary activity. No one has to ski. We all need to flush toilets and wash dishes in the sink.
Yeah. Hopes for significant instructor wage increases are doomed. I don't like the work "hobby" applied to ski instructing. Surprisingly it does fit when looking at it this way.
 

Nancy Hummel

Ski more, talk less.
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Snowmass
The instructors at Aspen/Snowmass appeared to have banded together many years ago to address management and to push for wages tied to lesson costs. This has been successful.

Perhaps, a ski instructor only union may be the solution to better wages.
 

James

Out There
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Since you asked…I manage a staff of a couple hundred hobbyists, many with full certs, several former collegiate racers, one X-Games (Hobbyist coach) & many seasoned pros with lots of hobby-hours on the clock plus all the low skilled non-certed newbie hobbyists that I foist on the unsuspecting public as I pick their pockets.

Although a hobbyist I’m a full time salaried and nicely compensated second in command (we stick together) who does all the hiring, most of the firing, coordinates the training and leads much of it. Occasionally they let me out to teach, but with my hobbyist background, as you know, (requiring me to turn in all of my USSA/PSIA/AASI certs since I didn’t start as a pro at age 8) my students suffer from my lack of abilities while being charged loan shark rates, which is the norm all across the whitened plain, but at our little insignificant mountain, all 12K feet of it, we still charge about half of what you would pay at a VR “significant“ school And yes @HardDaysNight our guests who show up by the hundreds on busy days to take Never-Ever/Novice/Intermediate Lessons never ask about the color of your pin, they’re more interested in your personality and you helping them learn, which we hobbyists call outcome based learning.

Although a couple times a year I will have someone show up on a private request asking for at least a L-2 or a 3. Obviously, like you, they are on to our scam…
You’re burning a straw man with this hobbyist insult thing. Mistermoose laid it out. I do agree with your points on that though. European instructors aren’t necessarily better. I’ve seen some weird stuff, like things from straight skis still taught.

People hire workers all the time under the table or unofficially. Especially roofers, who work on the side for greatly refuced fees because workman’s comp insurance is so high in that field, plus liability. So they’re often working on the side without insurance. Some are credentialed, some are not.
 
Thread Starter
TS
SkiSchoolPros

SkiSchoolPros

Impact Ecosystem- ie.Money with Meaning
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I'm not talking about quality of instruction, dedication, or even licensing/credentials. (Obviously those can vary) It's not personal. And it affects not just hobbyists (Hobbyist meaning anyone who is not in it for a meaningful profit) but it affects professionals too trying to compete in the same marketplace.

I'm talking about
1) Supply and demand.
2) Financial motivation of a hobbyist
3) Lack of an 8 hour day, but this really is a subset of #1.

It's really that simple. The full time instructor who gets his/her majority of income from instructing over a lifetime is competing with others who came from successful careers. How much upward wage pressure does those others who came from successful careers create?

Where would I make more money? Teaching skiing? Or teaching law? Or teaching medicine? How many hobbyists from other careers are teaching medicine? I'm going to guess near zero.
Vail and Beaver Creek ski schools continue to sell out many days...I woke up to half a dozen lesson requests in my inbox. I know a number of former instructors who have decided to sit things out.

Would you agree that the supply of ski lessons and resort revenue would increase this season if the sold out resorts allowed trained/certified instructors who were not currently employed or scheduled to work to arranged their own bookings and have the resort get 100% of non-lesson revenue (i.e. lift tickets/passes and potentially food, rentals, lodging and airport shuttle transportation) and 20% of lesson revenue?
 

HDSkiing

You’re Sliding On-Snow; Don’t Over-Think it!
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You’re burning a straw man with this hobbyist insult thing. Mistermoose laid it out. I do agree with your points on that though. European instructors aren’t necessarily better. I’ve seen some weird stuff, like things from straight skis still taught.

People hire workers all the time under the table or unofficially. Especially roofers, who work on the side for greatly refuced fees because workman’s comp insurance is so high in that field, plus liability. So they’re often working on the side without insurance. Some are credentialed, some are not.

You’re right. Sometimes after a long day on the mountain or as a break from it, I come here for the ski news of the day or mainly for the latest reviews. If I have one fault it’s that I’m highly defensive of the hard working team I have the privilege of skiing/riding with day in and day out.

I think I should skip the Ski School posts, too often they are no longer about instruction and what we can learn from each other. And there is a segment that comes here only to bash our profession.

I think I’ll stick to the reviews:).
 

HardDaysNight

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And there is a segment that comes here only to bash our profession.
Although it’s probably futile this deliberate misrepresentation should not go unanswered. No one is bashing the profession. What is being bashed are the iniquitous employment and compensation practices of ski schools, in the implementation of which you, as a senior manager, are complicit, practices which have destroyed any prospects of ski instruction remaining a viable profession in the US. You are to be congratulated on hiring talented young instructors in your ski school. Unfortunately you are not likely to retain them unless they have independent financial means or can make their way into one of the few management positions associated with a secure, stable income, as you have done. Of course when they move onto something more viable you can bring in the next wave of cannon fodder. This is a disgraceful way to run a business and I make no apologies for pointing it out however offensive you may find that.
 
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