Ski MD tuning

[James]

From what I've heard... Graham's assistant is running the show at the MMSC club: https://mmsca.org/product-category/grind-and-wax/grinds/.

They are, or at least were, open to the public. I haven't stopped in to inquire though.

I heard Graham closed up shop due to him being tired of the customer service end of the job (i..e, arguing with MMSC parents about what level of service the kids' race skis required). That's only what I heard through the rumor mill though; I knew who Graham was, but I certainly didn't "know" him. @Erik Timmerman .

Eh. Blame it on them. That way it’s “outsiders” ruining a good business. Not buying it. Kind of like saying you’re tired of the customers in the restaurant business.

Getting help was a huge issue. He had someone who’d been with him awhile who left. Reducing it to one issue is also wrong, as it’s a choice he made with his and his wife’s business. Not some large company. But I find it likely if he could of had someone reliably run it so he could step back a bit, it would still be open.

 

[KingGrump]

I am aware that many skiers can tell a good tune from a bad tune. Are there that many can tell a good tune from a very good tune? Or is it all in the head?

 

[KingGrump]

Last year I needed a back-to-factory tune.

I contacted him shortly after Thanksgiving about sending a pair of new Laser AXs for his "factory fresh tune" service and change the edge angles to 1/3

Not being picky here, but if you are changing the edge angles on a pair of AX to 1/3. It would not be the "factory tune."
Anyway, I have found most "factory tune" and/or "factory fresh tune" to be quite variable. Most of them leaning toward bad. If I had to get my skis prepped, I would certainly expected something much better than a "factory tune". Including the fabled Stockli.

Prepped two new pairs of AX this past weekend so the conditions of the "factory tune" are still fresh in my mind.

 

[Scruffy]

Sports Page in Glens Falls/Queensbury is doing a good job with base grinds these days. A lot of the Masters Racers I know are taking their skis there. I usually have them grind a couple of my skis a year, and have had no complaints so far. I used to take my skis to Edgewise in Stowe before they closed shop. I have no idea what the current turn around time is.

 

[James]

I am aware that many skiers can tell a good tune from a bad tune. Are there that many can tell a good tune from a very good tune? Or is it all in the head?

Bode said something in Sochi like, “You want the edges as dull as possible to do the job.” It’s faster was what he was getting at.
It’s all relative though.

You don’t need that much. You do need a ski that can slide sideways on hard snow, that releases the edge.
Both Edgewise and Ski MD have done excellent work in the past with old stone grinders that are hand fed. There was a time when Graham didn’t even have a ptex gun and used epoxy to fill base shots. It didn’t really matter except for looks.

The sad thing is so much bad work comes out from very expensive machines.

 

[KingGrump]

Bode said something in Sochi like, “You want the edges as dull as possible to do the job.” It’s faster was what he was getting at.
It’s all relative though.

You don’t need that much. You do need a ski that can slide sideways on hard snow, that releases the edge.
Both Edgewise and Ski MD have done excellent work in the past with old stone grinders that are hand fed. There was a time when Graham didn’t even have a ptex gun and used epoxy to fill base shots. It didn’t really matter except for looks.

The sad thing is so much bad work comes out from very expensive machines.

I am not questioning the quality of the tunes coming out of these shops. I wondered about the ability of the skiers to discern the difference.

 

[Brad J]

I. take my ski's to Ski MD but I bring them in in the spring and pick them up in the fall when he calls me. He really pushed his customers to do spring drop-off . He gets totally overwhelmed in fall with race kids high end race programs which sucks the life out of him. I am also in a business that is time consuming and frankly some customers are totally clueless to what's involved to provide a service. I took Mikes call to do a spring drop off as a plea for his sanity, plus a benefit to his customers that take advantage of his "slow" season. I have seen a few service business's with a sign stating that "your poor planning is not my problem" so when Mike says 2 months for a tune I don't have a problem with it because it's July.

 

[bbbradley]

I dropped off a pair in September(?) and they were ready a few weeks later. Well within my time constraints. The guy in front of me was picking up ~14(!!!) pairs of Head races skis of varying sizes.

 

[TheArchitect]

Does he have somebody helping him with the more mundane things (interacting with customers, taking payments, printing shipping labels, etc.)? I know he was looking for it in the early fall when I talked with him ... it was great to chat for 20-30 min, but that's probably not sustainable for him

No, not right now anyway. He mentioned that him getting pulled away to fill out forms, taking payments, etc was a big time draw but he didn't say anything about hiring.

 

[TheArchitect]

I'm not sure what the process is here; i.e., he's obviously doing everything by machine.

Is the "time suck" that the machine can only work so fast? Mike's obviously turning out a superior product, but where is his skill level coming in that an assistant (with access to the same machine) wouldn't necessarily be able to replicate?

I wish I could remember the details but I think he said that he has to adjust the machine each time for different variables unique to each pair of skis. I'm relatively certain he said that the machine setup for a narrow racing ski is different from a 95 or 105mm ski. I don't know if it's something that can be put in a chart or requires a judgement call on the fly. Maybe how badly a ski is out of flat or the edge damage also contributes? I don't know.

The only thing I'm certain of is that he doesn't just slap skis through the machine. He really cares about turning out top quality tunes.

 

[TheArchitect]

Other then a grind or a base bevel change a good tune can be done at home, just saying

Yes it can....if you have the time, inclination, setup and skills to do a good one. Not everyone does.

 

[James]

I am not questioning the quality of the tunes coming out of these shops. I wondered about the ability of the skiers to discern the difference.

Doesn’t matter if someone can tell the difference from a decent tune to an excellent one. The problem is few shops turn out a reliable decent tune. By tune I mean base grind and edges. This is why SkiMD is swamped.

(Personally, I think he should figure out how to tune skis without taking bindings and plates off. That’s really kind of insane, adds a lot of time, and possibly could lead to ruin.)

Every tune should be decent. You don’t need the nth degree in detail. There’s really not that much difference. Is the base flat enough, are there no hanging burrs? Beyond that it’s all gravy and what is appropriate for the skier.

Some of these skis are un-skiable. I had a pair in Chamonix that was actually dangerous. Most people either blame it on themselves or the ski unless they have a before it works, after it doesn’t. This situation is horrible for the sport and manufacturers keep on pumping out $500k machines and the situation is no better.

 

[TheArchitect]

I am not questioning the quality of the tunes coming out of these shops. I wondered about the ability of the skiers to discern the difference.

It's a good point. Speaking for myself I can only say that I notice a difference in how the skis grip after a SkiMD tune. I'm positive that in a blind test between a SkiMD tune and a good tune from somewhere else I would have to flip a coin. Going to Mike makes it so I can at least take the "bad tune" variable out of why my skiing sucked on a given day.

 

[KevinF]

The “tune quality” question is a good one.

When I was a much worse skier I’d have Mike tune my skis fairly regularly (usually just a sharpen and wax). That was probably a monthly? time frame so the edges would no doubt be wrecked and I’d always see a big improvement.

But now I do basic maintenance myself so while my tuning skills are probably fairly amateurish I regularly ski on a more consistent product.

I mentioned in one of the tuning threads that I’m not trying to produce a perfect edge; I just want a consistent one. Mike provides a consistent starting point.

 

[KingGrump]

Every tune should be decent. You don’t need the nth degree in detail. There’s really not that much difference. Is the base flat enough, are there no hanging burrs? Beyond that it’s all gravy and what is appropriate for the skier.

Exactly. Not really rocket science. Had several pairs came back from Startingate past week. Spec'ed base grind and base bevel only. Checked the base with a true bar. Dead on. Blended in the tip and tail base bevel (where the machine can't reach.) Polished the base bevel with a 400 diamond stone. The base bevel are as spec'ed. 0.5° for some and 1.0° for others. Cut back the side wall. Sharpen the side edge, wax and them puppies are ready to go.
I just don't see the complications most bring to this ski tuning process. I can understand for the high level racers. I am not one of them. Just a short fat old guy trying to make it to the bottom of the hill slowly.

This situation is horrible for the sport and manufacturers keep on pumping out $500k machines and the situation is no better.

Even with a well calibrated machine turning out good tunes, a certain amount of hand work is necessary to blend everything together for a seamless finish.


Most ski manufacturer used very expensive machines for the final finish prior to shipping. Yet I have found most tunes out of the wrappers to be atrocious. Past week, I prepped a pair of skis where the edges on the front third of the skis required 12 passes each with a coarse stone on a Razortune to reset the side edge. The rear two third of the edges on that pair of skis just needed 4 passes to reset. To me, that is inconsistent and certainly inexcusable. Especially for a pair of premium skis.

 

[MissySki]

I think Mike is super backed up right now. I brought mine in early November and just got them back last week. Think he’s out a ways into January now.

 

[Joby Graham]

Not being picky here, but if you are changing the edge angles on a pair of AX to 1/3. It would not be the "factory tune."
Anyway, I have found most "factory tune" and/or "factory fresh tune" to be quite variable. Most of them leaning toward bad. If I had to get my skis prepped, I would certainly expected something much better than a "factory tune". Including the fabled Stöckli.

Prepped two new pairs of AX this past weekend so the conditions of the "factory tune" are still fresh in my mind.

"Factory fresh tune" is Mike's nomenclature. Having read on this forum that factory tunes can vary widely, and even be very poor on premium skis, I wanted to ensure that my new skis were starting out with perfectly flat bases and consistent edge angles reset to other than Stockli's settings. During the season, I can sharpen and wax them myself.

 

[James]

Yeah “Factory Fresh” isn’t a great term. Nothing inherently great about a factory. Esp with Stockli and their enormous base bevels.

Plus it reinforces the notion that the angles the factory puts on matter and are somehow magical. Does anyone feel that way about factory tires on a car? Are they calling the dealer to see what tires came with it originally?

 

[Jersey Skier]

Answer to my original question. "No mail order until the Off Season."

 

[TheArchitect]

PSA for those who use SkiMD but aren't on the mailing list. Below is the email Mike sent out a couple months ago I dropped off my skis about a week ago and the shop was packed.

The ski season has come to a screeching halt! That being said, now is the time for my recreational skiing customer base to drop off your skis for summer tuning and storage. Participation in this program is a MUST if you would like to have your skis prepared for either Thanksgiving or Christmas next season! Based on the fact we were running at over capacity this season, participation in this program will alleviate the bottleneck that always occurs during the pre-season and assure that your skis are ready to pick up no later than October 1st, in plenty of time for the holidays.​

My focus next fall will be directed on sales and ski racing service only! Performing recreational and ski racing service in tandem at this time has proven to be extremely difficult, and results in customers struggling during the race preparation period to assemble product, preparation, and early season camp travel. I'm not planning on hiring "extra help" in the short term, as the skill set required and the labor demand are extremely high.​

We are the number one shop in Metro West and amongst the best in the country for a reason. We are also THE ONLY shop that actively sells and promotes "better skiing" through proper ski and boot tuning. Our goal has always been to make skiing easier and more fun, and I'm quite confident that this is the only shop where you can get just that!​

This coming winter will be the last season I will be operating manual race machinery. The summer of 2023 I'll be installing a new state-of-the-art automated machine that is sure to increase production up to 50%! This takes time and planning, with ample time to develop a new level of production, while maintaining the extreme quality we are known for! I'm confident that this will be an incredible asset to the business, allowing us to grow in step, or rather catch up, with customer demand!​

Customers that wish to purchase new equipment should begin to reach out directly to me in July, as 22-23 product begins to arrive to the distributers during this time. I'm also planning on ordering race ski inventory, and hopefully be able to offer Rossi race product, along with Head, Volkl, and Dynastar.​

For all pre-season boot purchasing, please reach out to Tim initially to set up a sizing appointment. Tim will then communicate the order to me to place in the system. If you're a racing parent and know specifically what boot and size you need, then reach out to me directly. Tim's and my contact info are located at the bottom of our homepage.​

I am accepting skis primarily now with store hours of 10 AM -5 PM until the end of March. For April and May, I'm not setting forth any formal hours of operation, so please call, text, or email me to schedule your drop off date, or for summer camp preparation.​

Please let me reemphasize the scale of importance particularly to the recreational customer base. If you choose to bypass this program, it will be more than likely I will not be able to get to your skis until after Christmas. Lead times of up to 2 weeks to get your skis prepped are more than likely, and only so many skis can be produced properly in a day.​

So, hats off to all of you. Tim and I are extremely grateful for your loyal patronage! It may be early, but for all of you hardcore enthusiasts, THINK SNOW, and have a wonderful summer!!​

Mike and Tim​