Ski patrollers “practice strike” in Park City.

[Eric@ict]

I had never given patrollers a second thought. They are, in my mind, a shadow group who keep us safe. You rarely seem them but know they are there. A guardian angel for all us skiers. I found this article and found it interesting that they are not considered professional in their occupation by VR. They are asking for the same as what most ask for as far as contracts are concerned. In general terms, what do patrollers earn and what are the benefits? Are all resorts the same in the treatment of patrollers? Is it seasonal or a year round job?

(UPDATED) ‘Not on strike just practicing.’ Ski patrollers, locked in negotiations with Vail Resorts, picket at PCMR.

Park City ski patrollers picket on Saturday morning, advocating for a pay increase and better sick leave coverage.

www.parkrecord.com

 

[Cameron]

I had no idea there was a ski patrol union.

 

[flbufl]

It is relatively a new thing.

Banding Together | POWDER Magazine

The rising trend of ski patrol unions and what it means for skiing

www.powder.com

I had no idea there was a ski patrol union.

 

[scott43]

Seems to me the ski patrol has the hammer here..

 

[Rich McP]

Please don't reply to this question with the practical challenges, I get that.

What would be the legal implications of trying to open with zero patrol support? Is there any directly applicable law? Would it only be threat of lawsuit by the family of that guy who would have survived if only patrol had be working that day? In other words, just how big is that hammer?

 

[Henry]

$13.50 to $15 an hour with no benefits for the first few years, if ever. Must buy their own boots, skis, gloves, goggles, etc. (pro pricing is a help, but most stuff isn't provided). The professionals we count on for avalanche control and injury evacuation deserve more.

 

[scott43]

I'm not a lawyer, although I did stay at a..blahblah...

They have volunteer and paid patrollers out there. So resorts with volunteers may not have the same liability. The paid ones though, that's a labour issuse. Imagine someone dies because patrol isn't there and they had to call regular ambulance folks and in court the plaintiff starts talking about how all this would have been preventable if they'd just paid them an extra $2/hr? I imagine that would be pretty ugly in court. Big bad ski megalith too poor to pay some good hard-working folks a few bucks.. I suppose they could hire scabs and continue operating..

 

[Scruffy]

Hunter Mt. ( a Vail Resort property ) was closed for three days a week ago because they did not have enough ski patrol personnel available to work ( many of the patrol were out sick for some reason - there are rumors, but I won't repeat them here). If Vail won't open without adequate ski patrol, then I don't know who would.

I think the mountains know the liability they might face if they had no or inadequate patrol on duty. That's just my guess. It's ski at your own risk, but precedence for first aid and getting you down off the mountain so an ambulance can then take it from there has been set de facto.

 

[Rich McP]

I'm thinking about the incident response part of the equation. The practical considerations would have many areas unable to open before even getting to considering legal risk. Consider Breck the day after a large snow event; how many parts of the mountain can't be opened because terrain above can't be mitigated - or even evaluated? You have no one to erect new closure ropes so you have to keep whole lifts offline to effect terrain closures. How many areas hold the entirety of their snow safety knowledge base in the heads of patrol, and so wouldn't even have the expertise available to make those choices without them. Probably many have that knowledge in the heads of supervisory staff who might still be at work, but maybe some don't? The whole problem is an interesting one to consider.

 

[snwbrdr]

But Naunchik indicated the union is seeking a larger goal: for Vail Resorts to recognize ski patrolling as a full-time career deserving of the same respect — and salaries and benefits — given to those who staff the multinational ski company’s corporate headquarters in Broomfield, Colorado

Pardon my ignorance... so what would the ski patrollers be doing the rest of the year when there is no ski season, considering they want the same respect as a full-time career? What would VR be paying them do to for half a year when they are not patrolling?

VR HQ paper pushers do have to manage VR assets year-round...that's a different role altogether, apples to oranges.

More apples to oranges, I knew a few ski patrollers at Mountain Creek, but it was a side gig, where they had full time careers as their primary source of income (as they were my co-workers)

 

[CascadeConcrete]

It's a slightly different issue than what's going on here, because I assume this is about paid pro patrollers. But I've always been utterly baffled that volunteer patrol even exists. Why people are willing to give up so much of their free time, take on responsibilities that are essentially a part time job, and typically even pay for their own training and equipment, all in service of some private company trying to make a buck without paying them, is completely beyond me. I get that they get season passes and pro deals and all that, yeah, yeah, yeah. But it can't even come close to the amount of time, money, and effort they put in. I've looked into what it would take to join ski patrol a few times, and I always just end up scratching my head thinking about how much of a raw deal that looks like. I'm astounded that the ski hills don't pay for equipment and training at minimum as a "thanks" for working for free. Seriously, what other industry is able to not only farm out such a critical part of its operation to volunteers, but essentially make those volunteers pay for the privilege of working for free?

I guess all this to say that I'm not really surprised pro patrol isn't treated much better.

And to all you crazies who do patrol to help the rest of us out, thank you!

 

[Ken_R]

It's a slightly different issue than what's going on here, because I assume this is about paid pro patrollers. But I've always been utterly baffled that volunteer patrol even exists. Why people are willing to give up so much of their free time, take on responsibilities that are essentially a part time job, and typically even pay for their own training and equipment, all in service of some private company trying to make a buck without paying them, is completely beyond me. I get that they get season passes and pro deals and all that, yeah, yeah, yeah. But it can't even come close to the amount of time, money, and effort they put in. I've looked into what it would take to join ski patrol a few times, and I always just end up scratching my head thinking about how much of a raw deal that looks like. I'm astounded that the ski hills don't pay for equipment and training at minimum as a "thanks" for working for free. Seriously, what other industry is able to not only farm out such a critical part of its operation to volunteers, but essentially make those volunteers pay for the privilege of working for free?

I guess all this to say that I'm not really surprised pro patrol isn't treated much better.

And to all you crazies who do patrol to help the rest of us out, thank you!

I would not ever do it unless I was already wealthy and set financially. Even so I might only do it for an independent ski resort or area. Helping VRi earn more money on my time? No thanks.

I agree, Ski Patrol is a vital part of ski operations. Its in the best interest of the ski area / resort to keep its patrons as safe as possible. It is a very big responsibility. One can argue that a ski resort / area is being negligent by not paying their patrol staff enough and not paying for their equipment and training. I know. What is enough.

 

[Erik Timmerman]

Pardon my ignorance... so what would the ski patrollers be doing the rest of the year when there is no ski season, considering they want the same respect as a full-time career? What would VR be paying them do to for half a year when they are not patrolling?

Most of them are seasonal, but depending on what the mountain does in the summer, some stay on year-round (or almost VR might employ them for 11 months, make them take a month off and re-hire so they don't have to pay benefits for full-time). If the resort has mountain biking, a zip-line, ropes course or whatever, that is what they'd do in the summer. Patrol director definitely wants this to be an option so that she doesn't have to hire a whole new staff every year. It's too easy for the patrollers to find greener pastures if they are gone for 6 months.

 

[Superbman]

It's a slightly different issue than what's going on here, because I assume this is about paid pro patrollers. But I've always been utterly baffled that volunteer patrol even exists. Why people are willing to give up so much of their free time, take on responsibilities that are essentially a part time job, and typically even pay for their own training and equipment, all in service of some private company trying to make a buck without paying them, is completely beyond me. I get that they get season passes and pro deals and all that, yeah, yeah, yeah. But it can't even come close to the amount of time, money, and effort they put in. I've looked into what it would take to join ski patrol a few times, and I always just end up scratching my head thinking about how much of a raw deal that looks like. I'm astounded that the ski hills don't pay for equipment and training at minimum as a "thanks" for working for free. Seriously, what other industry is able to not only farm out such a critical part of its operation to volunteers, but essentially make those volunteers pay for the privilege of working for free?

I guess all this to say that I'm not really surprised pro patrol isn't treated much better.

And to all you crazies who do patrol to help the rest of us out, thank you!

Crazy, Right? It's hard to explain, but passes have nothing to do with it--half of my patrol buys passes at other mountain-epic/ ikon--everyone has real jobs and can buy a pass where we patrol (and, as you pointed out-the self funded nature of volunteer patrol and time offsets and exceeds any financial benefit)

Not all Patrols and Patrol experiences are equal, but if you are lucky enough to find your way onto a Patrol that feels like a family, you'll get it then.

FWIW: Vail Resorts, however, have been pushing out volunteer patrols at most of their resorts (wholesale at Park city and Summit County and steadily back east). They are very hostile to Volunteer patrol, and it makes sense if you go all 'all-professional' that your professionals will organize and demand more professional benefits and perks.

 

[Eric@ict]

Pardon my ignorance... so what would the ski patrollers be doing the rest of the year when there is no ski season, considering they want the same respect as a full-time career? What would VR be paying them do to for half a year when they are not patrolling?

VR HQ paper pushers do have to manage VR assets year-round...that's a different role altogether, apples to oranges.

More apples to oranges, I knew a few ski patrollers at Mountain Creek, but it was a side gig, where they had full time careers as their primary source of income (as they were my co-workers)

Mountain safety during the summer. Still patrolling. We pay teachers year round.

 

[Scruffy]

Not all Patrols and Patrol experiences are equal, but if you are lucky enough to find your way onto a Patrol that feels like a family, you'll get it then.

This is key to understanding it. It's like volunteer ambulance, volunteer firemen. If you are in with a good group of people that work and play as a team, it becomes part of your life. Something Vail does not understand, apparently.

 

[snwbrdr]

Mountain safety during the summer. Still patrolling. We pay teachers year round.

So, with many of mountains converted for mountain bike, whether it's cross county and/or downhill, what happens if the ski patroller has no interest in mountain biking, nor do they want to buy a mountain bike? Some mountains to increase their revenue, invest in water parks infrastructure, so what happens if they are not lifeguards also? Are they going to maintain the water park infrastructure?

Like the article states, they want the same respect and status as the salaried paper pusher, so that would imply they have to be working year-round for VR, just like the paper pusher

Teachers, they are also teaching around 9 months a year, which during those times, that's when they draw their salary, summer break, no paychecks are coming until school starts again in August-September. During this time, they can take training to further their skillset (for future growth in salary). So if you do the teacher analogy, salaried patrollers wouldn't earn a paycheck doing ski patrol during the summer and fall months, unless they have a position that allows them to work year-round for the resort.

 

[Mike King]

Pardon my ignorance... so what would the ski patrollers be doing the rest of the year when there is no ski season, considering they want the same respect as a full-time career? What would VR be paying them do to for half a year when they are not patrolling?

VR HQ paper pushers do have to manage VR assets year-round...that's a different role altogether, apples to oranges.

More apples to oranges, I knew a few ski patrollers at Mountain Creek, but it was a side gig, where they had full time careers as their primary source of income (as they were my co-workers)

Well, the article is not specific, but most resorts have full-time seasonal and full-time year-round positions. I suspect the ski patrollers are not arguing for full-time year-round positions, but rather that management treat them as professionals with extensive training, experience, and a career. Many of our patrollers here in Aspen are fire fighters, paramedics, or other first wilderness responders in the off-season.

I don't think patrol gets enough respect or pay for what they do.

Mike

 

[François Pugh]

So, with many of mountains converted for mountain bike, whether it's cross county and/or downhill, what happens if the ski patroller has no interest in mountain biking, nor do they want to buy a mountain bike? Some mountains to increase their revenue, invest in water parks infrastructure, so what happens if they are not lifeguards also? Are they going to maintain the water park infrastructure?

Like the article states, they want the same respect and status as the salaried paper pusher, so that would imply they have to be working year-round for VR, just like the paper pusher

Teachers, they are also teaching around 9 months a year, which during those times, that's when they draw their salary, summer break, no paychecks are coming until school starts again in August-September. During this time, they can take training to further their skillset (for future growth in salary). So if you do the teacher analogy, salaried patrollers wouldn't earn a paycheck doing ski patrol during the summer and fall months, unless they have a position that allows them to work year-round for the resort.

Yes they would not be payed during the summer, unless they get their salary delayed, e.g. get 10/12 or (1/2 if they only work 6 out of 12 months) of their yearly salary every month, but they would still have a "full-time" professional job with benefits.

 

[Eric@ict]

So, with many of mountains converted for mountain bike, whether it's cross county and/or downhill, what happens if the ski patroller has no interest in mountain biking, nor do they want to buy a mountain bike? Some mountains to increase their revenue, invest in water parks infrastructure, so what happens if they are not lifeguards also? Are they going to maintain the water park infrastructure?

Like the article states, they want the same respect and status as the salaried paper pusher, so that would imply they have to be working year-round for VR, just like the paper pusher

Teachers, they are also teaching around 9 months a year, which during those times, that's when they draw their salary, summer break, no paychecks are coming until school starts again in August-September. During this time, they can take training to further their skillset (for future growth in salary). So if you do the teacher analogy, salaried patrollers wouldn't earn a paycheck doing ski patrol during the summer and fall months, unless they have a position that allows them to work year-round for the resort.

In our state, the teachers can elect to have their pay spread out all year. Same amount of money. Take the larger sum and manage it yourself or let the USD do it for you.

Job descriptions change all the time for different reasons. During the summer a patroller might have to do things they might not want to. I know many people who are required to do additional duties in their jobs.

As far as equipment for the job, pay a wage that allows them to purchase good equipment. As a mechanic, I’ve invested a lot of money in tools, but I’ve been well compensated for my experience and knowledge.