Ski patrollers “practice strike” in Park City.

[OldJeep]

We pay teachers year round.

Sort of. Teachers typically have the option to take their 9 months of pay over the 9 months or have it filtered out to 12 months - which makes dealing with any benefit payments easier. They are not really getting paid 12 months a year, just deferring part of their income during the 9 or so working months to spread it out.

 

[pchewn]

But I've always been utterly baffled that volunteer patrol even exists. Why people are willing to give up so much of their free time, take on responsibilities that are essentially a part time job, and typically even pay for their own training and equipment, all in service of some private company trying to make a buck without paying them, is completely beyond me.

Volunteering for a worthy cause is a time honored activity across the US. We have volunteer firemen, volunteer school crossing guards, volunteer coaches, volunteer blood donors, volunteer nurses and doctors, volunteer food service workers, volunteer clergy ...... etc.

Those who have volunteered for any of this "Get it" . It is a rewarding experience of working with your fellow man to achieve a common goal. Those who have not volunteered may sneer at the "chumps" putting out so much and receiving so little in financial rewards.

 

[Eric@ict]

Sort of. Teachers typically have the option to take their 9 months of pay over the 9 months or have it filtered out to 12 months - which makes dealing with any benefit payments easier. They are not really getting paid 12 months a year, just deferring part of their income during the 9 or so working months to spread it out.

The accept a yearly salary. It’s their choice in how they receive it. It’s not 9 months of pay, it’s a yearly salary.

 

[Eric@ict]

Volunteering for a worthy cause is a time honored activity across the US. We have volunteer firemen, volunteer school crossing guards, volunteer coaches, volunteer blood donors, volunteer nurses and doctors, volunteer food service workers, volunteer clergy ...... etc.

Those who have volunteered for any of this "Get it" . It is a rewarding experience of working with your fellow man to achieve a common goal. Those who have not volunteered may sneer at the "chumps" putting out so much and receiving so little in financial rewards.

I had no idea their were people who volunteered for this or it was even an option. I’ve done a lot of volunteer work, but wouldn’t think about doing volunteer work for a large for profit corporation when there are people who do the job for pay.

 

[scott43]

I had no idea their were people who volunteered for this or it was even an option. I’ve done a lot of volunteer work, but wouldn’t think about doing volunteer work for a large for profit corporation when there are people who do the job for pay.

I volunteered once as helper at a big marathon here. I happened to have a professional meeting with the organizers as well. They rolled in with their $2k suits and I thought...not volunteering anymore for private enterprises....as I examined my Gap khakis....

 

[scott43]

The accept a yearly salary. It’s their choice in how they receive it. It’s not 9 months of pay, it’s a yearly salary.

I like to say, what is your annual compensation?

 

[jmeb]

I volunteered once as helper at a big marathon here. I happened to have a professional meeting with the organizers as well. They rolled in with their $2k suits and I thought...not volunteering anymore for private enterprises....as I examined my Gap khakis....

It's almost like different corporations are different. Not all private enterprises are the same. The head of the operation I volunteer patrol for I regularly see out shoveling snow, doing nose-patrol in lines, helping guests with equipment.

Would I volunteer for Vail? Probably not. Are all privately owned ski hills Vail? No.

 

[Eric@ict]

It's almost like different corporations are different. Not all private enterprises are the same. The head of the operation I volunteer patrol for I regularly see out shoveling snow, doing nose-patrol in lines, helping guests with equipment.

Would I volunteer for Vail? Probably not. Are all privately owned ski hills Vail? No.

That’s a good point and in total agreement. Too easy to paint with a broad stroke.

 

[Cameron]

Our local ski patrol is 100% volunteer and their funding comes either mostly or entirely from a ski swap event in the fall. Several times over the last 30 years I've thought about either joining the patrol or becoming an instructor but with no or low pay and not even a free season pass for my wife and child I decided it wasn't really worth my time. Sure it can be rewarding but there are plenty of rewarding opportunities to donate my time that don't help line the pockets of a for-profit business.

 

[crgildart]

Volunteering for a worthy cause is a time honored activity across the US. We have volunteer firemen, volunteer school crossing guards, volunteer coaches, volunteer blood donors, volunteer nurses and doctors, volunteer food service workers, volunteer clergy ...... etc.

Those who have volunteered for any of this "Get it" . It is a rewarding experience of working with your fellow man to achieve a common goal. Those who have not volunteered may sneer at the "chumps" putting out so much and receiving so little in financial rewards.

There's a pretty big difference between volunteering at the food bank or hospital for 8 hour shifts and working a gig at a ski resort. The latter usually comes with quite a few quite tangible benefits like season passes, free for the patroller and huge discounts or sometimes free for their family members.. ProForm discounts, a fair amount of free swag, resort food discounts, etc....

 

[CascadeConcrete]

Volunteering for a worthy cause is a time honored activity across the US. We have volunteer firemen, volunteer school crossing guards, volunteer coaches, volunteer blood donors, volunteer nurses and doctors, volunteer food service workers, volunteer clergy ...... etc.

Those who have volunteered for any of this "Get it" . It is a rewarding experience of working with your fellow man to achieve a common goal. Those who have not volunteered may sneer at the "chumps" putting out so much and receiving so little in financial rewards.

First of all, I want to say that I'm not trying to call anyone "chumps". I greatly appreciate what patrollers do and included a thank you in my original post. That wasn't really the intent of what I was saying.

That said, what's the difference between volunteer ski patrol, and every single other volunteer you listed? Only ski patrollers are volunteering their time to a for profit corporation to help them make money while not paying a crucial group of their "staff". I'm certain that patrolling is a very rewarding experience for the right type of person. Otherwise nobody would do it. But that still doesn't make it right that for profit corporations can push off a key element of their operations into volunteers. Some in this thread have called out the big corps like Vail (and also Alterra, Powdr, and Boyne), which are probably the most objectionable in this sense, as they have fairly deep pockets. But even most local hills should be paying patrollers since they're so critical to their operations that the resort literally couldn't open without them. Patrollers deserve better, and should be treated better.

 

[jmeb]

If you want all-paid staff at smaller hills that likely see a big difference in patrol staffing needs based on how busy it is each day -- be prepared to pay for it in increased costs.

Personally, I'm thankful some volunteer patrols exist. There is no way I could have gotten the level of outdoor-focused medical training I did for the price, the experience in treating patients in harsh environments, or the improvements in my skiing. It has made me a better partner for any adventure in the backcountry, more appreciative of the work paid patrol people do, and a better citizen in general (like when I was first on scene to a girl who crashed her bike in the park this summer and had a nasty head injury.)

 

[mdf]

Sort of. Teachers typically have the option to take their 9 months of pay over the 9 months or have it filtered out to 12 months - which makes dealing with any benefit payments easier. They are not really getting paid 12 months a year, just deferring part of their income during the 9 or so working months to spread it out.

My brother-in-law was a teacher. He usually had a summer job, but careful planning was still required to get through the summer financially. But ... he was still treated as a full time professional, with year-round health insurance, seniority that didn't restart at zero every fall, and pension contributions.

If you look at the job-recruit-facing or employee-facing web pages for ski resorts, you can see that there is a huge difference in how they treat "full time year round" and "full time seasonal" employees. "Part time seasonal" get treated even worse.

 

[Tim Hodgson]

First of all, I want to say that I'm not trying to call anyone "chumps". I greatly appreciate what patrollers do and included a thank you in my original post. That wasn't really the intent of what I was saying.

That said, what's the difference between volunteer ski patrol, and every single other volunteer you listed? Only ski patrollers are volunteering their time to a for profit corporation to help them make money while not paying a crucial group of their "staff". I'm certain that patrolling is a very rewarding experience for the right type of person. Otherwise nobody would do it. But that still doesn't make it right that for profit corporations can push off a key element of their operations into volunteers. Some in this thread have called out the big corps like Vail (and also Alterra, Powdr, and Boyne), which are probably the most objectionable in this sense, as they have fairly deep pockets. But even most local hills should be paying patrollers since they're so critical to their operations that the resort literally couldn't open without them. Patrollers deserve better, and should be treated better.

Sounds like you need to give back something to your fellow man buddy.

I was a volunteer Mountain Host at a local resort (not VR) and was not paid.

NSP Patrollers are not paid.

You think that Ski School for a large for profit corporation is much better pay than "volunteer"?

There are simply people who like to help other people.

The volunteer patrolers are not really volunteering to help the resort.

They are volunteering to help the skiers at the resort.

As a poodle, I teach to share the joy of skiing to my students. I am paid by my resort and the pay helps with the gasoline expense to get there, but not much else. On the other hand, at 25 years service I believe that I will have earned a lifetime pass at all of the resorts which my employer owns (at 30 years I will earn one for my wife) - this is a BIG plus!

But it is not about money buddy. At ski school, it is about putting smiles on faces. At patrol it is about taking the fear out of the injured person's or companion's eyes that their injuries will be taken care of.

At our volunteer fire department it is about extricating people from auto accidents and resucitating people undergoing heart attacks.

Sounds like you could benefit from some music and movies which convey this concept better than I can:

Christian Cinema

www.christiancinema.com

Really, it is about giving back to your fellow man: "From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked."

Wish you the best buddy.

P.S. Cliff Clavin is frickin' hilarious in "What if..."

 

[tch]

Tim, not sure I agree with all of your post.
I DO agree that volunteering is an important element of living a worthwhile life in our society, AND I believe that volunteering often provides benefits to the volunteer far in excess of the personal "cost".
But...I am a more than a bit bothered by the blithe assumption that those "benefits" should underpin our understanding of that work.

For years, teachers were underpaid because society (mostly men) decided the sense of purpose and meaning that teachers often experienced somehow compensated them enough. Of course that is BS -- a sense of accomplishment and meaning does not pay the rent. In addition -- and perhaps more insidiously -- this prevailing view also worked to devalue the enterprise itself ("those who can, do; those who can't, teach"). In this capitalist economy/culture we live in, a thing is often seen as worth what we pay for it. Ergo, teaching is not a valued profession and the enterprise (education) is often not seen as valuable.

I speak as a teacher of 37 years and as a volunteer first responder, volunteer board member on three community foundations, and volunteer worker at a local homeless shelter. Some enterprises simply require volunteers because of their mission and finances. But to make volunteers support a necessary service for a profit-making company is not appropriate. I don't care how much sense of accomplishment one may get from this work; a job at a business is a job -- and the workers ought to get paid what it's worth. Earning a dollar (or fifteen) doesn't undermine the sense of personal gratification one can get from meaningful work; it simply allows one to pay the rent and recognizes the value of that job.

 

[crgildart]

"Internship" is the mechanism to facilitate volunteer free labor for profit generating entities. IMHO, part time patrol should get tons of TANGIBLE fringe benefits in exchange for x number of part time hours on the trail. Full time should be paid, full stop..

 

[CascadeConcrete]

Sounds like you need to give back something to your fellow man buddy.

With all due respect, I'm not interested in giving something back to my fellow for-profit corporation.

As the saying goes, if it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck. These volunteer positions (ski patrol, mountain host, etc) are effectively jobs. The people that do them should be compensated fairly.

If you want all-paid staff at smaller hills that likely see a big difference in patrol staffing needs based on how busy it is each day -- be prepared to pay for it in increased costs.

I would rather the resort and it's patrons shoulder those costs instead of individual ski patrollers. Ski patrol should be a cost of doing business, just like any other employees that are necessary to run the business. Right now, they are not and that is a distortion of the market which is probably at least related to why paid patrol is poorly compensated.

 

[Tim Hodgson]

@tch and @CascadeConcrete since you mentioned me by name, I owe you both a response.

I believe in freedom.

I believe in the free market.

Voluntarism is not a "distortion" of the free market.

It is a component of the free market.

Please don't try to end voluntarism for those who freely want to volunteer by adding government intrusion (i.e., a true distortion) into the free market by eliminating the employee-exemption for volunteer patrollers and making resorts employ all their patrollers or insisting that the Government employ patrollers like Government employed teachers.

My resort uses only Pro Patrollers. They are rock solid.

But other resorts supplement pro patrol with National Ski Patrol association volunteer patrollers as a force multiplier to provide more safety on the slope.

There is a special exemption in California Labor Code section 3352 which provides that "any person performing voluntary service as a ski patrolman who receives no compensation for those services other than meals or lodging or the use of ski tow or ski lift facilities" is excluded from the definition of "employee."

Eliminating this exemption from the Labor Code would have the unintended consequence of either reducing slope safety or causing the less profitable resorts to close altogether because quite frankly allot of for-profit resorts are simply not that "profitable." Notice the recent market consolidation of resorts in the industry? That consolidation was not done because all of the consolidated resorts were super profitable. Just the opposite.

So, if you actually care about slope safety, keep the exemption in the Labor Code.

The word "Volunteer" is actually a military term. World Wars I and II were actually won mainly by volunteers.

Let volunteers freely volunteer.

P.S. The movies are really good . . .

 

[Wilhelmson]

Always a touchy subject. Are we supposed to give lip service and say yeah they should get what they demand every time their contact is up for renewal? The part about this I dont get is that to a certain extent we all choose where and how to live. We have major inequalities and imbalance but my money would not be prioritized on ski patrol.

 

[CascadeConcrete]

There is a special exemption in California Labor Code section 3352 which provides that "any person performing voluntary service as a ski patrolman who receives no compensation for those services other than meals or lodging or the use of ski tow or ski lift facilities" is excluded from the definition of "employee."

I wasn't actually aware of this, so thanks for bringing it up. I learned something new today.

I would argue that the fact that CA felt the need to explicitly create an exception in the labor code to say the volunteer ski patrollers are not employees is the best evidence possible that these really are jobs. They meet all the criteria to be treated as such under the law, so an exemption had to be made. I guess we just draw very different conclusions from this point, and have almost 180° opposed thoughts on which is a distortion in the labor market (I'll just say "something something ski lobby money something something").

Also, about the volunteers as a military term: they're called volunteers because they volunteered to join the military by choice (as opposed to a draft or whatever). It's not because they do the job of a soldier with a special exemption in the labor code so that the army doesn't have to pay them.