Ski patrollers “practice strike” in Park City.

[crgildart]

I suspect the exemption was strictly for the purpose of ensuring the resort would not be held responsible for providing healthcare and other benefits the "employees" were entitled to. God forbid the volunteer actually logs enough hours to qualify for those but if they did.. Sorry NOPE! Same goes for injured on the "job" and disability, medical costs, etc.. Ya, they need to say no unless the perks are REALLY good. Not risking that just to be a good Samaritan..

 

[jmeb]

Please don't reply to this question with the practical challenges, I get that.

What would be the legal implications of trying to open with zero patrol support? Is there any directly applicable law? Would it only be threat of lawsuit by the family of that guy who would have survived if only patrol had be working that day? In other words, just how big is that hammer?

Since I didn't see this directly answered -- for all places there would be big insurance hurdles.

For those who operate on National Forest land (i.e. most large resorts out West) there is a requirement in their special use permit to have and follow an operating plan that includes patrol requirements.

 

[tch]

Tim H.: appreciate your response.
I guess I would allow for anyone who truly wants to volunteer (and, of course, who is capable) to be able to do so. If someone wants to work for nothing -- or $1 -- that's up to them.
But it's not appropriate to build an entire enterprise on that requirement.

And...I am with @CC in seeing the very exception you cite as being implicit recognition that it IS a job.
And...I agree with @crgildart that it is also a way for ski resorts to avoid having to pay for important benefits and coverage.

I wonder if you would feel the same way if you had suffered a major injury while volunteering. Just a thought.

 

[gwasson]

My resort uses only Pro Patrollers. They are rock solid.

But other resorts supplement pro patrol with National Ski Patrol association volunteer patrollers as a force multiplier to provide more safety on the slope.

Just because someone is a member of NSP, that doesn't automatically make them a volunteer. You can be a paid patroller and also a member of NSP.

 

[jmeb]

Volunteers aren't the problem. The idea that anyone should be employed and not make a living wage is the problem. The misguided idea that a new patroller making $14 an hour is just $4 less valuable than a 10 year veteran that has dialed med skills, intimate knowledge of terrain and snowpack, etc is the problem

There are no doubt lots of volunteer hours that going into making this website (and this website is a business) run. There are also professional webs admins, SEO optimizers, e-marketers, etc in the world. Are the volunteers who help administer this site the problem?

 

[Tim Hodgson]

The Supremacy Clause of the Constitution of the United States (Article VI, Clause 2), establishes that the Constitution, federal laws made pursuant to it, and treaties made under its authority, constitute the "supreme Law of the Land", and thus take priority over any conflicting state laws. So don't worry about the military needing an exemption from the California Labor Code.

@gwasson is correct. When I was a member of NSP as a Mountain Host I was also a paid ski instructor at a different resort.

Let's all agree to put Freedom First!

So, how about if I don't demand that you guys and gals volunteer as patrolmen, and you don't demand that volunteer patrollers insist on being paid?

That way we increase Freedom among men and women instead of diminishing it.

For some, volunteer patrolling is an expression of "Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness" which is a well-known phrase in the United States Declaration of Independence which gives three examples of the unalienable rights which the Declaration says have been given to all humans by their Creator, and which governments are created to protect. Like the other principles in the Declaration of Independence, this phrase is not legally binding, but has been widely referenced and seen as an inspiration for the existence of government.

Just because something is a "job" does not entitle you to payment. That is "Volunteerism" in which people freely agree to do a job without being paid, without making a living wage, yadda, yadda, yadda. It is not for everyone. But those who it isn't for should not prevent those who it is for, from doing the job without pay.

@jmeb there is no "problem." Just people searching for a problem to solve. I would rather see all of you demand that FaceBook and Google pay you for all the private information which you "voluntarily" give to them to sell to make their humongous profit than see you all tell volunteer patrollers what they should be doing with their volunteerism. . .

 

[pais alto]

Please don't reply to this question with the practical challenges, I get that.

What would be the legal implications of trying to open with zero patrol support? Is there any directly applicable law? Would it only be threat of lawsuit by the family of that guy who would have survived if only patrol had be working that day? In other words, just how big is that hammer?

New Mexico law requires a ski area to provide patrollers. It may, or may not, vary by state.

 

[pais alto]

Pardon my ignorance... so what would the ski patrollers be doing the rest of the year when there is no ski season, considering they want the same respect as a full-time career? What would VR be paying them do to for half a year when they are not patrolling?

VR HQ paper pushers do have to manage VR assets year-round...that's a different role altogether, apples to oranges.

More apples to oranges, I knew a few ski patrollers at Mountain Creek, but it was a side gig, where they had full time careers as their primary source of income (as they were my co-workers)

Trail crew, equipment maintenance, medical and rescue training, facilities maintenance - buildings, snowmaking system, signs, vehicles, etc. Sort of like what fire departments do.

 

[OldJeep]

The accept a yearly salary. It’s their choice in how they receive it. It’s not 9 months of pay, it’s a yearly salary.

Not really since they get additional money if they agree to teach summer school. Wife has been a teacher for 20 years, pretty familiar with how it works

 

[pais alto]

The accept a yearly salary. It’s their choice in how they receive it. It’s not 9 months of pay, it’s a yearly salary.

I believe teachers get benefits as well.

 

[Pat AKA mustski]

The accept a yearly salary. It’s their choice in how they receive it. It’s not 9 months of pay, it’s a yearly salary.

I earned big money most summers in my “second” job - more than I earned as a teacher. My teaching salary was an “annual” contract that stated my service time was 183 school days a year, 5 teaching periods a day, weekly staff meetings, parent conferences as needed, minimum on campus time each day. If I chose to teach during the summer or to teach an extra class, I was paid additional stipends. My benefit package was part of my contract and medical was included all 12 months.

I like to say, what is your annual compensation?

If you had asked me that, you would have heard a number that was much above my teaching salary.


Back to topic... I have seen a move to professional patrollers and a second hill safer volunteer corps. This seems like a wise differentiation.

 

[Mike King]

Always a touchy subject. Are we supposed to give lip service and say yeah they should get what they demand every time their contact is up for renewal? The part about this I dont get is that to a certain extent we all choose where and how to live. We have major inequalities and imbalance but my money would not be prioritized on ski patrol.

Really? You do realize that folk are being hired to flip burgers at Wendy's for more per hour than the stating patrol at Park City? And the starting patrol at Park City has to have more or less a paramedic qualifying certification?

Look, I'm about as free a market economist as there comes, but I do recognize market failures, and one of them is monopsomy. Vail is taking advantage of being a monopolist at its resorts and it's market share in the hiring of pro patrol. And when paramedics make more than folk doing the same job and putting themselves in more danger from avalanches, job injuries, etc., I say that there's a problem.

Mike

 

[scott43]

I suppose you can try to build your business on volunteers..no law against that..however, you can't be surprised if they turn around and give you the finger if you start taking them for granted.

 

[Tim Hodgson]

@Mike King , I am curious to know if the Patrollers at Park City are making more money since Vail Resorts bought Park City? I am not arguing with you. I respect you and your knowledge and experience. I just want the empirical info. to consider in this discussion.

I made $200 a day as an assistant whitewater kayak instructor in 1997, wthout tips. I was once tipped $200 for teaching a client to roll in 15 minutes. He was ecstatic (i.e., it is easier to breath right side up than upside down).

I took a pay cut when I started ski instructing. But I was not that good of a skier or a ski instructor when I was hired by Kirkwood when it was a standalone resort in 1997.

Everybody's pay went up when Vail Resorts bought Kirkwood in 2012.

BTW, I am very kind to the people who serve me fast food. But you couldn't pay me enough to work there. But you could pay me less than they make to work at my resort.

 

[Rich McP]

@Mike King , I am curious to know if the Patrollers at Park City are making more money since Vail Resorts bought Park City? I am not arguing with you. I respect you and your knowledge and experience. I just want the empirical info. to consider in this discussion.

I made $200 a day as an assistant whitewater kayak instructor in 1997, wthout tips. I was once tipped $200 for teaching a client to roll in 15 minutes. He was ecstatic (i.e., it is easier to breath right side up than upside down).

I took a pay cut when I started ski instructing. But I was not that good of a skier or a ski instructor when I was hired by Kirkwood when it was a standalone resort in 1997.

Everybody's pay went up when Vail Resorts bought Kirkwood in 2012.

BTW, I am very kind to the people who serve me fast food. But you couldn't pay me enough to work there. But you could pay me less than they make to work at my resort.

A couple of years ago, the Arby's in Silverthorne was advertising on the signboard on the side of the restaurant for NEW empolyees and showing a starting wage that exceeded my wage as a ski instructor. I had been skiing more than 40 years and was an experienced professional with coaching and other teaching experience, and with PSIA certification. I now make more than that wage that had been advertised.

 

[Wilhelmson]

Really? You do realize that folk are being hired to flip burgers at Wendy's for more per hour than the stating patrol at Park City? And the starting patrol at Park City has to have more or less a paramedic qualifying certification?

Look, I'm about as free a market economist as there comes, but I do recognize market failures, and one of them is monopsomy. Vail is taking advantage of being a monopolist at its resorts and it's market share in the hiring of pro patrol. And when paramedics make more than folk doing the same job and putting themselves in more danger from avalanches, job injuries, etc., I say that there's a problem.

Mike

Realy what?

The difference is the burger flippers and we dummies in the cities suburbs and mild climates get to flip, rot at a desk or run a crew in construction while others have chosen an on snow occupation. Vail has plenty of full time jobs with benefits. They are in their website for all to see. My close relative works for a family resort in management but i bet they dont pay the post grad rate they pay in Boston, and a $250/ year job in Boston = 400+ in San Francisco.

I could move to the mountains too but we stay here bc my wifes job includes free college.

 

[Rich McP]

Realy what?

The difference is the burger flippers and we dummies in the cities suburbs and mild climates get to flip, rot at a desk or run a crew in construction while others have chosen an on snow occupation. Vail has plenty of full time jobs with benefits. They are in their website for all to see. My close relative works for a family resort in management but i bet they dont pay the post grad rate they pay in Boston, and a $250/ year job in Boston = 400+ in San Francisco.

I could move to the mountains too but we stay here bc my wifes job includes free college.

I respectfully disagree with your assessment. The difference is that it is an insulting lack of respect for the professionalism of the job. Your assertion that one should earn less because their office is awesome has zero to do with if the wage offered reflects the personal investment to qualify to perform the job. For me, that includes being in my 5th decade of skiing, sports coaching, teaching martial arts, on the professional side being a team member, team lead, mentor, department manager - all of which require "teaching" skills. For pay rate to suggest that I am no more valuable to the comapny than a kid not out of high school, or just out, or dropped out who just learned his "craft" is what the lack of recognition of professional status is about.

 

[jmeb]

The difference is that it is an insulting lack of respect for the professionalism of the job. Your assertion that one should earn less because their office is awesome has zero to do with if the wage offered reflects the personal investment to qualify to perform the job.

So clearly put. Yes, the office is dope. That doesn't change you need an EMT level medical cert, regularly treat life-threatening trauma in adverse conditions, be an expert skier, put in physically demanding 10hr+ days, learn snow science, know how to perform avy mitigation, and also be friendly enough to guests. All while less than one can live on without a better paying summer gig.

 

[socalgal]

Tim, not sure I agree with all of your post.
I DO agree that volunteering is an important element of living a worthwhile life in our society, AND I believe that volunteering often provides benefits to the volunteer far in excess of the personal "cost".
But...I am a more than a bit bothered by the blithe assumption that those "benefits" should underpin our understanding of that work.

For years, teachers were underpaid because society (mostly men) decided the sense of purpose and meaning that teachers often experienced somehow compensated them enough. Of course that is BS -- a sense of accomplishment and meaning does not pay the rent. In addition -- and perhaps more insidiously -- this prevailing view also worked to devalue the enterprise itself ("those who can, do; those who can't, teach"). In this capitalist economy/culture we live in, a thing is often seen as worth what we pay for it. Ergo, teaching is not a valued profession and the enterprise (education) is often not seen as valuable.

I speak as a teacher of 37 years and as a volunteer first responder, volunteer board member on three community foundations, and volunteer worker at a local homeless shelter. Some enterprises simply require volunteers because of their mission and finances. But to make volunteers support a necessary service for a profit-making company is not appropriate. I don't care how much sense of accomplishment one may get from this work; a job at a business is a job -- and the workers ought to get paid what it's worth. Earning a dollar (or fifteen) doesn't undermine the sense of personal gratification one can get from meaningful work; it simply allows one to pay the rent and recognizes the value of that job.

 

[Wilhelmson]

I respectfully disagree with your assessment. The difference is that it is an insulting lack of respect for the professionalism of the job. Your assertion that one should earn less because their office is awesome has zero to do with if the wage offered reflects the personal investment to qualify to perform the job. For me, that includes being in my 5th decade of skiing, sports coaching, teaching martial arts, on the professional side being a team member, team lead, mentor, department manager - all of which require "teaching" skills. For pay rate to suggest that I am no more valuable to the comapny than a kid not out of high school, or just out, or dropped out who just learned his "craft" is what the lack of recognition of professional status is about.

I actually agree with you. My problem could be that I dont understand why an overqualified employee would accept that wage ( which is unspecified) yet its somehow Vail's or whoevers problem. A blunt assessment and i apologize and will drop out rather than continue to offend