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Ski patrollers “practice strike” in Park City.

Rainbow Jenny

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Regular EMTs also have a very hard job requiring similar skills and knowledge but 24/7 and they are also not paid nearly what I think they deserve.. Yet, people are lining up for the open positions when they are available.

I’ve enjoyed worked with ~50 young EMTs the past 6 months on COVID missions. I am impressed with what they do given their 100 hour training. Now they’re vaccinating too. However, half of them have their eyes set on nursing, PA, or medical schools.

Given the above, ski patrollers are in a totally different league and their work much more technical and demanding. I believe many are medic patrollers in my neck of the woods, not just EMT. If I thought ski instructors are underpaid (which I am one), it doesn’t even begin to speak about how underpaid pro ski patrollers are, being a volunteer patroller myself also.
 

crgildart

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We all agree they are underpaid. Yet, even in areas where it's super difficult to recruit and retain GOOD patrol staff... offering higher pay and/or better benefits seems to be off the table. Is that because other areas would then have to follow suit to compete (i.e. collusion?). When those other areas are owned by the same mega parent company or follow their wage practices it gets in to that territory.
 
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Pat AKA mustski

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skiJ

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The accept a yearly salary. It’s their choice in how they receive it. It’s not 9 months of pay, it’s a yearly salary.

my friends who are teachers are working on nine month contracts -

they do receive medical insurance for the year, beginning with the opening of school or the school district's fiscal year, depending how it is written in the Contract, but it is Clear, the basic term of their employment as teachers is nine months.

That's the contract.


skiJ
 
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Eric@ict

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my friends who are teachers are working on nine month contracts -

they do receive medical insurance for the year, beginning with the opening of school or the school district's fiscal year, depending how it is written in the Contract, but it is Clear, the basic term of their employment as teachers is nine months.

That's the contract.


skiJ
I think there is a difference in states. I know our teachers can take it all in 9 or spread it out for 12. It is a contract but in our state its not at the individual level, its union negotiated.
 

skiJ

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Eric -

it can vary between school districts in a state , and
it can vary between categories of teachers within a district --

I don't think I have more to contribute about teacher compensation in a thread that is about possibly unionizing ski patrols -


there is a lot of interesting conversation in this thread about compensation and volunteerism -

I would offer, volunteers by definition do not expect to get paid, unless one wants to claim everyone volunteers for their job., or soldiers in a "volunteer army" did not volunteer for the job of being a soldier. . .
( being a soldier is a job. ) ;

there are rewards to volunteering that are non-monetary - including
some of my best friends, I met through volunteer activities...


whether or not ski patrolling is still appropriate volunteer activity, I would break-down by the responsibilities involved and the history of the volunteer ski patrol -
I believe when the responsibilities are greater than First Responder level of care, and the basic transport of patients to patient care rooms or access to additional Care or transport ( meaning, off the snow slopes ), or involve snow safety work ( avalanche control ),
I question whether those responsibilities are appropriately assigned to volunteers by a Business.
( That is just my opinion ) .

Good luck to patrollers that want to unionize...


Thank you... skiJ
 
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Chris Johnson

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PC ski patrollers on "practice strike" again.


At this point, it feels like they need to just do it. Vail continues to say they are negotiating "in good faith" but haggling over $1.70 per hour increase in pay. Part of me feels like if the union keeps "practice striking", it shows they're hesitant to pull the trigger. That being said, I don't know that I fully understand the implications of them actually striking (other than the mountain being crippled).

They agreed to work last season without a contract, and are going into the start of this season without one. Clearly, VR is just hoping they will continue to practice and never actually walk out. Vail will slow roll negotiations as long as possible in hopes of getting through the majority of the season. Time to hit them where it hurts now. Every day Vail doesn't come to an agreement is actual money being lost.
 

Dave Marshak

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The time to strike is the week before Christmas. If they strike too soon, Vail could lock them out for a couple of weeks, or even replace them before Xmas.

dm
 

Chris Johnson

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The time to strike is the week before Christmas. If they strike too soon, Vail could lock them out for a couple of weeks, or even replace them before Xmas.

dm
So this is where my knowledge fails. What happens if they strike? Can Vail just go out and hire a bunch of new patrollers? If so, then what is the point of the union? Or is it because they don't have a contract? Again, what's the point if Vail can just not agree to any demands, let the contract lapse, and then fire them all? I would think part of unionizing would be that the employer can't fire the staff and then hire nonunion staff.
 

Chris Johnson

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The time to strike is the week before Christmas. If they strike too soon, Vail could lock them out for a couple of weeks, or even replace them before Xmas.

dm
In doing some more reading, it sounds like the union has to vote on a strike. Given that the union was formed by a slim margin, they couldn't afford to lose many votes to strike. Granted that formation vote was a few years ago, no idea how patrollers feel about it now. But that was a thought I had. So they "practice" to show some teeth.

Also, it sounds like an employer can hire other workers to fill in (grain of salt, most of this info is in regards to factory worker type unions vs ski patrol). I guess the idea here is VR would have a hard time finding enough qualified patrollers to fill in. I think you're right Dave. Hold out until Christmas time and strike the week between Christmas and New Years.
 

Dave Marshak

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So this is where my knowledge fails. What happens if they strike? Can Vail just go out and hire a bunch of new patrollers? If so, then what is the point of the union? Or is it because they don't have a contract? Again, what's the point if Vail can just not agree to any demands, let the contract lapse, and then fire them all? I would think part of unionizing would be that the employer can't fire the staff and then hire nonunion staff.
What happens if they strike is that the mountain has to close down. Vail could try to hire replacements but people with those skills are not readiy available. That's the only reason a strike could succeed.
If I were a patroller I'd vote to strike, because why would I care if I lost a job that didn't pay enough to live decently.

dm
.
 
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jmeb

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Can Vail just go out and hire a bunch of new patrollers?

I highly doubt there are a bunch of extra folks hanging around that can meet patroller qualifications, willing to work for patroller wages. To say nothing of the knowledge of mtn operations you'd lose overnight.

If these were on National Forest land, they'd be required to have a patrol in accordance with their patrol plan to operate. If they aren't...I can't imagine an insurance company that wouldn't close a place down due to lack of patrol.
 

ZionPow

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I highly doubt there are a bunch of extra folks hanging around that can meet patroller qualifications, willing to work for patroller wages. To say nothing of the knowledge of mtn operations you'd lose overnight.
Correct. PC and other Vail resorts eliminated their volunteer patrol staffs a few years ago. They have had only paid pro patrol staff the last few years. If the patrol went on strike, there is no way PC could hire enough qualified patrollers to operate the mountain. They have a very large patrol staff since PC and Canyons merged. You would think that the patrol really has the upper hand in this negotiation. Part of the problem is that there is a significant percentage of most patrollers that absolutely love their jobs and have been successful finding other ways to make ends meet in spite of the low patrol wages. Some patrollers make most of their money in off season jobs such as fighting wild fires, construction, commercial fishing, forest service work, etc. This is one reason why it is hard to obtain enough votes to unionize or strike on some patrol staffs. A lot of patrollers are willing to overlook the low wages to help guests, perform avalanche mitigation, work with a highly functioning team, ski every day, and basically work in their dream jobs.
 

Chris Johnson

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A lot of patrollers are willing to overlook the low wages to help guests, perform avalanche mitigation, work with a highly functioning team, ski every day, and basically work in their dream jobs.
This is where you lose me. At this point, it isn't an either/ or. I think we can nearly unanimously agree the patrollers have the upper hand here. Why not vote to strike, negotiate better pay and either 1. continue to do the other jobs they do to earn a living and have more money or 2. scale back those other jobs to enjoy some down time during the off season. Or maybe that's just my lazy internal ski bum talking :)
 
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Eric@ict

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My experience with unions is you can’t just strike or have a slowdown. The contract language generally covers when and how that can play out.
 

Dougb

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My experience with unions is you can’t just strike or have a slowdown. The contract language generally covers when and how that can play out.
Once your collective bargaining agreement is expired you are free to strike. The exceptions are some units such as public safety who have bans on the right to strike under law. But in the private sector, whatever no strike clause workers agree to under a CBA expire when it does. Some CBAs do not contain no strike clauses as well. If you strike for economic reasons you can be replaced.

Workers can also strike in the event that they suspect their employer committed an Unfair Labor Practice under the National Labor Relations Act. One example would be bad faith bargaining on the part of their employer. Those strikers cannot be permanently replaced. However, workers and unions seek solid legal counsel before deciding to do a ULP strike. If it’s deemed illegal later job loss, penalties, legal fees ensue.

Workers also have the right to do informational picketing short of a strike and shutdown. This would be used to educate PC skiers about what’s going on.

Finally, workers who are not in unions also engage in so-called “wild cat” strikes, slow downs, and work stoppages. They do so with much less legal protection than union workers, but all US workers have some remedies when they engage in protected concerted activity. This is what it was like before workers won the right to join unions and bargain together in 1935. It was a power in numbers proposition.

We are seeing a huge uptick in the number of strikes in the US despite a dramatic drop in the number of workers with unions because people are correct workers have the upper hand right now. Those strikes are resulting in real economic gains from wages to health care, retirement, and more.

Okay, that’s more than enough out of me. I come here for ski talk!

Bottom line is I am supposed to be in PC in February and I will not cross a picket line. I will go across the street to Deer Valley or down the road to Alta and Snowbird. Benefits of having both passes this year
 

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