Ski selection for non-FIS 16 y/o racer

[Vicmoto]

Hi All,

I’d appreciate having your advice on the best material for my 15 years old daughter. She is turning 16 in October and wants to keep racing. FIS races are not an option for various reasons. She will be racing something called “Inter-clubs” which stays somewhere in between NASTAR and FIS. The courses have a par time around 40 seconds with gates set +/- 23 meters vertical distance. The photo below may give you an idea.

She is now in HEAD WORLDCUP REBELS I.GS RD TEAM (173cm/21 m). For what I’ve been told, the natural move would be to go into 25m skis such as Rossignol Hero Athlete FIS GS (182cm/25m) or HEAD WORLDCUP REBELS E-GS RD PRO (183cm/25.4m) but I have my doubts. Having 25m radius skis for gates set at 23m does not look ideal. A heavier skier with technique can make the material work to shorten the radius but I’m not sure if this is going to be easy for a 164cm/50kg (5.4/110pounds) girl on adult skis. My daughter is definitely not Alice Robinson…

Maybe that a Master cheater such as Rossignol Hero Master 19/20 (185cm/23m or 180/21m) would appear as a better option, don’t you think? These skis are easier to handle and maybe that you can make a better chrono with an easy 185cm/23m than with a not-so-easy 182cm/25m.
I know that length and radius is not the whole thing, but I have to begin with something.

I want my daughter to have fun, improve her ski and go fast (in this order). I fear that if the skis are too much, she may be overwhelmed. I also fear being overprotective and handicap her possibilities. Tough decision for a father.

The obvious answer would be to ask her trainers, which I have done. But I would prefer to have the opinion of the gurus in this forum first.

Thanks in advance.

 

[François Pugh]

I'm no guru, but I do know how a ski works. If she can tip those 25-m side-cut radius skis up to 60 degrees, they will be dialing up a 12.5 m turn.

I have no racing experience; whenever I manage to get in a course, if I make three good turns in a row, I'm going too fast to make the next turn cleanly and blow it (loose lots of time and speed) (same on a motorcycle ). If she is able to cleanly carve most of the turns, she needs a longer radius. Ideal would be the radius she is just barely able to make clean carves. That theory is tempered by the fact that even FIS Globe winners need to dump speed in certain spots on certain courses.

I'm sure there are lot's of folk with racing experience that will give you advice based on them actually skiing courses, and not just recreational skiing, watching racers and knowledge of physics.

 

[S.H.]

a 25m ski will arc a 23m turn when tipped to about 23 degrees, if i did my back-of-the-envelope calculation correctly. Not especially high edge angles.

If she were racing FIS, she'd be expected to make 24 or 25m turns on 30m skis fairly regularly. Those tweener skis are generally geared towards athletes like your daughter, so I wouldn't necessarily say no to them.

What are *her* goals? What's an honest assessment of her ability? Desire? Work ethic? Likelihood of growing? Strength?
What do her coaches recommend?

 

[Vicmoto]

Dear François, dear SH,
Thank you for your answers. Her personal goals would be to move into FIS racing but this is not an option. She would have to ski off-season and have a training plan which is not within our reach. Although she has been doing well in the "minor league" she didn't have outstanding results. Top ten regularly but not so many podiums. Some fellow skiers with better results who moved up to FIS are struggling to keep the pace. She is in good shape also but not particularly strong. Physically closer to Bassino than to Goggia.
The coaches recommend the 25m skis.
Having regard your comments and the coaches recommendations it seems that the 25 m can fit in the programme. She may have to work a bit to handle them but this is rather good if she wants to keep improving.
Thanks again for your advice.

 

[ScotsSkier]

Yes, the 25 m ski is the right choice. Avoid the Rossi masters ski as it has a wider waist (~72 iirc) and is slowe edge to edge, not what she needs

 

[Swede]

No brainer. Follow coaches advice.

 

[DocGKR]

65mm wide GS ski with an approximately 25m radius; skip the 67-69mm wide skis....

 

[Philpug]

No brainer. Follow coaches advice.

Like a @ScotsSkier. Not only does he play a coach on the internet, he is one in real life and I have been told might have stayed in a Holiday Inn Express (or at least drove past one).

 

[razie]

the 25m Head is the obvious choice. that's a master's radius and i like a lot the older 183/25.6m that i have. having said that, Head made some nice 175/23m skis too, if you find one on a sale, would also work well, as well as other 23m like Volkl.

if you had some video of her skiing, we could dial it in better... the 21m turns too short for smoking those courses, but - if it holds well and she does not ski at a FIS level, there is no serious need to change. i skied the 21m once, didn't like them, but that was likely the tune, too graby. they should be stable enough though and would be more forgiving, just going by the numbers. how long has she skied the 21m?

 

[Vicmoto]

the 25m Head is the obvious choice. that's a master's radius and i like a lot the older 183/25.6m that i have. having said that, Head made some nice 175/23m skis too, if you find one on a sale, would also work well, as well as other 23m like Völkl.

if you had some video of her skiing, we could dial it in better... the 21m turns too short for smoking those courses, but - if it holds well and she does not ski at a FIS level, there is no serious need to change. i skied the 21m once, didn't like them, but that was likely the tune, too graby. they should be stable enough though and would be more forgiving, just going by the numbers. how long has she skied the 21m?

I’ve got a video here but not sure if it helps. It’s on SL skis.... She has been a couple of years on the 21m without problems. From what I read it seems clear that we should be looking into 25m. I will take a look to the end of season sales.
Thanks for the advice

 

[sparty]

No brainer. Follow coaches advice.

First, this. They work with her and actually know what the sets are like.

Second, if the goal is skill development, going to the FIS ski even on a non-FIS set isn't necessarily a bad idea. The FIS skis will happily turn in a radius well under their sidecut, as long as the skier asks correctly. In other words, they're far more demanding of technical proficiency; you can get away with a lot on a 23m or 25m ski that you won't get away with on a 30m ski. The short-term result may (and probably will) be slower times, but the long-term result is better skiing.

There are obviously other factors, from strength and size to motivation, but IMO, FIS-age athletes who aren't specifically targeting tight and/or oddball sets (i.e. high-school racing) will see the best long-term results on FIS skis for GS.

 

[razie]

ill disagree with @sparty even though the post is right in principle! the 30m skis can easily teach wrong movement patterns and are actually a good retardation mechanism for learning, when used in sets less than 25m and/or with athletes that don't ski par for FIS. if you want to race FIS... well, that's that, but even with my athletes I had them bring a second pair of 21-23m for training - especially on smaller hills, the last thing I want is to see them throw the heels this way and that way on this or that stupidly tight course, all the way to the bottom... just to make it - that's a big disservice to them! I've seen more than my share if stupidy tight courses and that's one of the issues that retards learning. that and picket fences, although the latter may be argued successfully in the court of coach opinion

the issue is not the math - sure a 30m can bend at 20m but how many can sustain that more than 1-2 turns?

bring the right tools for the job! for slalom, it's disco sticks. for speed it's 45m 4x4s, for the powder you get floaters etc...

 

[sparty]

ill disagree with @sparty even though the post is right in principle! the 30m skis can easily teach wrong movement patterns and are actually a good retardation mechanism for learning, when used in sets less than 25m and/or with athletes that don't ski par for FIS. if you want to race FIS... well, that's that, but even with my athletes I had them bring a second pair of 21-23m for training - especially on smaller hills, the last thing I want is to see them throw the heels this way and that way on this or that stupidly tight course, all the way to the bottom... just to make it - that's a big disservice to them! I've seen more than my share if stupidy tight courses and that's one of the issues that retards learning. that and picket fences, although the latter may be argued successfully in the court of coach opinion

the issue is not the math - sure a 30m can bend at 20m but how many can sustain that more than 1-2 turns?

bring the right tools for the job! for slalom, it's disco sticks. for speed it's 45m 4x4s, for the powder you get floaters etc...

I'll agree that there is a point at which a set becomes effectively stupid for a 30m ski. I'm not sure exactly where it is, but I haven't seen anything consistently sub 23m in the U16/19 world that I can recall, and even 23m would be unusually tight (I can recall running a 23m training course because we were sharing hillspace with younger athletes and needed to match their set, but I can't recall seeing it consistently at a race). I realize the spec allows for sets down to 18m, but were anyone to set at that distance (consistently) in the circuits I've worked, I don't think he or she would ever get another set.

Are you consistently seeing tighter courses in the US Ski & Snowboard world, or is that under the auspices of a different organization? (I know some of the coaches I work with in a USSS weekend program have suggested that high-school leagues often involve "interesting" course sets)

At 20m, I wouldn't expect a 30m GS ski to be a particularly good tool; I think that I, personally, would be faster on a FIS slalom ski at that point.

 

[hbear]

There is a limit but often based on athlete skill. Catch the top of the turn quicker, get on the outside and move and it’s amazing how some can still ski clean in a very tight set....not easy however.

Saw some WCers in Sweden skiing 12-14m set on their 30m for training (movement)....was impressive. Obviously not as pretty as they would a 25m set but they were not chucking them sideways either. An extreme example but doable.

 

[BGreen]

I’ve got a video here but not sure if it helps.

Based on the video she has plenty of skills. The 182 Rossignol is a good option for her. I'm sure Head has something similar. Depending on her weight, her current Heads may be fine for another season. Rossignol also makes a 175 but I don't think they would be different enough from her current Heads. Someone with some skills can easily get through a 24m course on a 30m ski.