Non Region Specific Ski Town Real Estate

[Wasatchman]

Real issues. Hopefully we lose the luster soon.

'Yellowstone' boom pits lifetime Montana residents against wealthy newcomers

"Yellowstone," which is partially filmed in Montana, has become one of the hottest shows on TV, and it's raised the profile of Big Sky Country.

www.cnbc.com

The entire mountain west is seeing a huge boom in migration. Not just Montana. I don't see it getting much better. Plan on making some room for them. There is a lot more on the way.

 

[Wasatchman]

Just got an eye opener in the mail yesterday. The lender sent us a love note telling us that our payment is going up about 10% to cover escrow shortages from the property tax bill. There was a small rate increase, but most is caused by value change. There is a senior tax freeze program available based on age and income that we thankfully don't qualify for on the latter half. The city does adjustments values annually, and this one is a shocker.

Just one more thing appreciate and enjoy this year.

The value change in and of itself doesn't lead to a higher property tax bill. It is the value change relative to the city/county average that matters. And of course the overall tax rate. I've been getting hit with some big increases but it's way better than poor @Uncle-A in New Jersey. And @KingGrump does not get off lightly either. You ever wonder why that dude is so damn grumpy despite 120 ski days a year while staying at the Shangri-la? Whatever we pay in property taxes is a pittance to what those poor bastards pay.

 

[Uncle-A]

The value change in and of itself doesn't lead to a higher property tax bill. It is the value change relative to the city/county average that matters. And of course the overall tax rate. I've been getting hit with some big increases but it's way better than poor @Uncle-A in New Jersey. And @KingGrump does not get off lightly either. You ever wonder why that dude is so damn grumpy despite 120 ski days a year while staying at the Shangri-la? Whatever we pay in property taxes is a pittance to what those poor bastards pay.

You mean people outside of NJ don't pay $14,000 property taxes for a 50 X 100 lot with a 4 BR 2.5 BATH home?

 

[Bad Bob]

You mean people outside of NJ don't pay $14,000 property taxes for a 50 X 100 lot with a 4 BR 2.5 BATH home?

Thank you. I feel much better now.
My sympathy.

 

[Uncle-A]

Thank you. I feel much better now.
My sympathy.

That house was a 2,200 square ft in Central NJ, I sold it a few years ago and moved to a 55+ community in South NJ, but the new house is 3BR with 3Baths 2,450 Sq ft (not exactly downsizing) on a smaller lot the taxes are $12,000 but the HOA is $3,000 a year. The HOA is for all the amenities, grass cutting, snow removal, use of the clubhouse, the gym, the pool, tennis and boccie courts etc. The total is higher but the community is well worth the HOA, my sister and brother-in-law are in the same community about a half mile away so family is close by and that is important to me and my family.

 

[KingGrump]

The value change in and of itself doesn't lead to a higher property tax bill. It is the value change relative to the city/county average that matters. And of course the overall tax rate. I've been getting hit with some big increases but it's way better than poor @Uncle-A in New Jersey. And @KingGrump does not get off lightly either. You ever wonder why that dude is so damn grumpy despite 120 ski days a year while staying at the Shangri-la? Whatever we pay in property taxes is a pittance to what those poor bastards pay.

We have it pretty good in NYC. My property tax here in NYC is a small fraction of similar properties in Long Island. One of my rental property in LI has a tax bill of $28K.

 

[ilovepugs]

You mean people outside of NJ don't pay $14,000 property taxes for a 50 X 100 lot with a 4 BR 2.5 BATH home?

That’s what I pay in ski country (substantially bigger lot)… but I rationalize it as paying for privacy in a 1900-person community.

 

[Doug Briggs]

One of the ways Breckenridge is addressing the problem of locals getting priced out of the market:

Breckenridge’s Buy-Down Program puts 8 deed-restricted properties up for sale to help workforce housing​

80% of the homes in my neighborhood were built starting 22 years ago with the deed restriction mentioned in the article. What isn't mentioned in the article (and I believe is part of the deed restriction) is that appreciation is restricted to 3% or the increase in AMI (whichever is less) to reduce the rate that values go up and values of improvements are limited to a certain amount; after that limit you can't include the improvements in the capped amount. These restrictions help a lot, but the prices of homes that have been turned over a few times are getting up there in price because you can add realtor fees to the capped price thus inflating the next owners cap by more than just the restrictions (3%, etc).

 

[Doug Briggs]

We have it pretty good in NYC. My property tax here in NYC is a small fraction of similar properties in Long Island. One of my rental property in LI has a tax bill of $28K.

Because in Breckenridge we have huge business real property tax revenues, residental rates are actually quite reasonable. My deed restricted home was valued at $439,700 last year, this year it is the same, and the RE taxes are estimated to be $1,745. Thank you VR.

Edit: To put this in perspective and add some transparency, my home's data: http://gis.summitcountyco.gov/Map/DetailData.aspx?Schno=6508516. Most notable aspects: 0.0960 acre lot, 1643 SFLA, 3 bed, 2 bath.

The Restrictive Covenants that govern my neighborhood.

 

[Pat AKA mustski]

It’s the one thing California did right. Prop 13 caps property tax at 1% of the property value to be assessed at the time of sale and taxes are not allowed to rise more than 2%\yr until the next sale. We still have a super low tax on our rental property because it is based on the 1998 purchase price.

 

[Alexzn]

It’s the one thing California did right. Prop 13 caps property tax at 1% of the property value to be assessed at the time of sale and taxes are not allowed to rise more than 2%\yr until the next sale. We still have a super low tax on our rental property because it is based on the 1998 purchase price.

I am not sure I agree with this statement. I am a beneficiary of Prop 13, thank you very much, but I think it has a terrible effect on the overall market, as it effectively penalizes people for moving. If someone wants to move to a smaller house, Prop13 often makes it a financially questionable decision, because even if you take out cash from the sale, your property tax could still increase literally by a factor of 10. This is why we have plenty of widows and old couples living in 3,000 sqft+ houses that they do not need and cannot maintain. That's one of the reasons why inventory is always constrained and the only house on the block for sale gets multiple offers even in a downturn. And it is downright egregious for rental properties. Why should a landlord (who often lives 1000 miles away) pay 10x less than a young couple with a kid who lives in a similar house next door? How is that fair? And, sadly, Prop13 is not going anywhere, people will never repeal it.

 

[JoeSchmoe]

You mean people outside of NJ don't pay $14,000 property taxes for a 50 X 100 lot with a 4 BR 2.5 BATH home?

What kind of criminals are skimming off the top to justify that ridiculous tax rate?

Here in Canuckistan, we're maybe about half that and by all accounts we have a substantially higher paid and even more bloated public sector than NJ.

The only justification I can think is your municipalities are delivering services that might be delivered by higher levels of government here(?).

 

[Uncle-A]

What kind of criminals are skimming off the top to justify that ridiculous tax rate?

Here in Canuckistan, we're maybe about half that and by all accounts we have a substantially higher paid and even more bloated public sector than NJ.

The only justification I can think is your municipalities are delivering services that might be delivered by higher levels of government here(?).

The one justification is that every year NJ is in the top 5 states for education in the country.

 

[Wade]

The one justification is that every year NJ is in the top 5 states for education in the country.

Yeah, that seems generally to be what high property taxes pay for.

I live in westchester, ny and when we moved out of the city, we chose a town based on the quality of the schools.

Our property tax bill is a little over $50k, with about two thirds of that going to fund the school district.

On the one hand, it’s insane. On the other hand, the quality of the education and the services the school district provides are on par with the $50k per year private schools around here.

Whenever I have to write that tax check, I console myself by thinking about the fact I could have chosen to pay a third of the taxes to live in a lower quality school district, and then have to pay $100k in private school fees on top of that to get my two kids a similar education.

As much as I like my town, with these taxes, there is absolutely zero reason to live here if you don’t have kids in the school system. I’ll be out of here as soon as my youngest is out of high school.

 

[KingGrump]

The one justification is that every year NJ is in the top 5 states for education in the country.

Most towns in good school districts around NY area have very high real estate prices and high property taxes. Mostly to fund the school system.

NYC public school system is more Dickensian. Literally a tale of two systems.

 

[scott43]

Most towns in good school districts around NY area have very high real estate prices and high property taxes. Mostly to fund the school system.

NYC public school system is more Dickensian. Literally a tale of two systems.

People refer to a similar thing here as educational apartheid..

 

[KingGrump]

People refer to a similar thing here as educational apartheid..

All men people are created equal. Some more equal than others.
IMO, there is nothing wrong with a merit based system.

 

[JoeSchmoe]

IMO, there is nothing wrong with a merit based system.

At the same time, wouldn't you want the baseline system to at least be good enough to provide an educational experience that would allow mobility among the classes- based on the aptitude of the student, rather than who their parents are? Maybe it is... I'm not sure, but reading between the lines it sounds like it isn't.

Here in Canada, the baseline system is just fine, but paying the big bucks for the pricey school gets you connections you couldn't get in a public school.

 

[Uncle-A]

Yeah, that seems generally to be what high property taxes pay for.

I live in westchester, ny and when we moved out of the city, we chose a town based on the quality of the schools.

Our property tax bill is a little over $50k, with about two thirds of that going to fund the school district.

On the one hand, it’s insane. On the other hand, the quality of the education and the services the school district provides are on par with the $50k per year private schools around here.

Whenever I have to write that tax check, I console myself by thinking about the fact I could have chosen to pay a third of the taxes to live in a lower quality school district, and then have to pay $100k in private school fees on top of that to get my two kids a similar education.

As much as I like my town, with these taxes, there is absolutely zero reason to live here if you don’t have kids in the school system. I’ll be out of here as soon as my youngest is out of high school.

You are in a good area of NY, I spent a month not too far from Westchester back in the early 1970's. The thing I remember about it was a main road, Tuckahoe Rd. and I think that is closer to Yonkers than Westchester. There are a lot of big beautiful homes north of that area. While I was there I dated a girl from north of there but I don't remember much more about it.

 

[Pat AKA mustski]

I am not sure I agree with this statement. I am a beneficiary of Prop 13, thank you very much, but I think it has a terrible effect on the overall market, as it effectively penalizes people for moving. If someone wants to move to a smaller house, Prop13 often makes it a financially questionable decision, because even if you take out cash from the sale, your property tax could still increase literally by a factor of 10. This is why we have plenty of widows and old couples living in 3,000 sqft+ houses that they do not need and cannot maintain.

This is actually not entirely true. Under propositions 60/90, a person over 55 can sell their home and buy another property of equal or lesser value and transfer the tax base. Proposition 19 extended this to disabled persons of any age and homes lost due to natural disaster. This is the reason, we have kept the original property all these years.