Skis for maximizing your bump skiing practice time?

[MissySki]

I agree with @LiquidFeet, or at least what I think he's saying. Keep in mind that the recommendation in the video is coming from a competitive moguls coach and he's absolutely right if you want to ski moguls competitively. But if you're looking to just ski moguls like a competent all mountain skier, less aggressive line and lower speeds than a competition mogul skier, your Sheevas are probably fine. Sure, some skis handle bumps a little better than others, but as long as you aren't on something crazy stiff or crazy wide (you aren't), it's more about the skier than the ski. But we all like new gear, so if that's what you want, then you do you.

Haha no I am not trying to be a competition mogul skier by any means. I usually take Deb's videos to be talking more to the average recreational skier.. or maybe the more obsessive types since perhaps the average skier isn't spending time trying to diagnose their technique issues and watching videos about it etc. I didn't take it as speaking to just a competitive mogul skiing audience, but maybe there is a part of that in there that went over my head and I was taking it too literally as a sweeping statement for all.

While I do like new skis, I truly just wanted to know if this would help my progression. I definitely don't need another pair of skis just for the heck of it, but if another tool makes my life easier on mountain I'm open to that as well.

 

[MissySki]

In bumps, that right there is the golden nugget.

As you are standing static at the top of the run looking down, move your feet close (close) together, sink your hips lower to the snow than usual (significantly lower), pull your feet back so they are as far behind you as your ankle's ROM (dorsiflexion) will allow, and start your run. If you lose this stance, stop, push the reset button, and head down again. Or better yet, regain that stance without stopping and keep heading downhill.

There is also mention in the video of not putting one's feet too close together (though that could be a relative statement) and keeping your skiing foot to foot. Do you agree with that concept?

And then, sorry if this should be obvious, but which direction are you saying that the hips should be sinking to be lower than usual? Due to my tendency to get a little aft, and my greater timidness in bumps not helping that out either, I just want to make sure I understand that piece.

 

[CascadeConcrete]

I usually take Deb's videos to be talking more to the average recreational skier.. or maybe the more obsessive types since perhaps the average skier isn't spending time trying to diagnose their technique issues and watching videos about it etc. I didn't take it as speaking to just a competitive mogul skiing audience

That's fair. The main point I was making is that he comes from a competitive mogul skiing background and has a particular set of viewpoints (and potentially biases) as a result. Most decent mogul skiers (not talking about actual competitive mogul skiers, just normal skiers who are competent in the bumps) don't have mogul skis and just use an all mountain setup. Can you get better equipment for moguls? Probably. Will it make a big difference at a recreational level? *Shrugs* But if you want to try, it's certainly not going to be bad for your mogul skiing.

 

[LiquidFeet]

There is also mention in the video of not putting one's feet too close together (though that could be a relative statement) and keeping your skiing foot to foot. Do you agree with that concept?

And then, sorry if this should be obvious, but which direction are you saying that the hips should be sinking to be lower than usual? Due to my tendency to get a little aft, and my greater timidness in bumps not helping that out either, I just want to make sure I understand that piece.

If you pull your feet back, so they feel like they are behind your hips, then you will not be in the back seat. This is what @Tony S meant when he said lead with your body. Sink low with your legs, pull feet back. Do not let heels rise. Keep torso relatively upright; avoid folding forward at the hips or waist. The ankles will definitely need to dorsiflex to pull the feet back in order to keep heels firmly planted on the bootboard.

Your weight will go to the outside ski naturally as you turn no matter how wide your stance. You can exaggerate the differential if you find that approach useful. Whether you do may depend on how you initiate your turns. Bobby, if I remember correctly, did not discuss how to initiate the turns. There are different effective ways to do that in the bumps.

I was surprised when Bobby said don't put feet too close together. That's unexpected, especially coming from a competitive bumper. I took some screen shots of him skiing from Deb's video which is posted in the OP. His stance varies; about half the time during one run in that video his legs and skis look like this:

 

[MissySki]

If you pull your feet back, so they feel like they are behind your hips, then you will not be in the back seat. This is what @Tony S meant when he said lead with your body. Sink low with your legs, pull feet back. Keep torso relatively upright; don't fold forward at the hips or waist. The ankles will definitely need to dorsiflex to pull the feet back.

Your weight will go to the outside ski naturally as you turn no matter how wide your stance. You can exaggerate the differential if you find that approach useful. Whether you do may depend on how you initiate your turns. Bobby, if I remember correctly, did not discuss how to initiate the turns. There are different effective ways to initiate in the bumps.

I was surprised when Bobby said don't put feet too close together. That's surprising, especially coming from a competitive bumper. I took some screen shots from that video of Deb's posted in the OP. His stance varies; about half the time during one run in that video his legs and skis look like this:

View attachment 183150 View attachment 183151 View attachment 183152 View attachment 183153 View attachment 183154 View attachment 183155

Haha yeah he was kind of “do as I say, not as I do”.

 

[François Pugh]

@MissySki , Sometimes it's the way you think of things that gets in the way. Classic zen example, "Don't think of a monkey when you take this medicine I'm giving you to take home." You will never be able to take the medicine without thinking of a monkey.
Forget about pressure for a while and just get low and pull your feet back.

 

[KingGrump]

Most decent mogul skiers (not talking about actual competitive mogul skiers, just normal skiers who are competent in the bumps) don't have mogul skis and just use an all mountain setup.

Don't see too many dedicated bump skis on rec skiers around. Only place where I see multiple pairs of bump skis on rec skiers is Mary Jane. The zipper line bumps there are nice.

Can you get better equipment for moguls? Probably. Will it make a big difference at a recreational level? *Shrugs* But if you want to try, it's certainly not going to be bad for your mogul skiing.

Depends on how you want to ski the bumps. Bumps skis are designed for a more direct line. If that is not your intent, then it may not be a good fit.

 

[MissySki]

@MissySki , Sometimes it's the way you think of things that gets in the way. Classic zen example, "Don't think of a monkey when you take this medicine I'm giving you to take home." You will never be able to take the medicine without thinking of a monkey.
Forget about pressure for a while and just get low and pull your feet back.

This is likely a potential issue for me as well. I’m a scientist and extremely analytical, so I can get way too inside of my head with what I think I’m “supposed” to be doing while skiing. Sometimes I listen to music purposely to try and focus on a beat and shut my head off while skiing.

 

[cantunamunch]

If you pull your feet back, so they feel like they are behind your hips, then you will not be in the back seat. This is what @Tony S meant when he said lead with your body. Sink low with your legs, pull feet back. Do not let heels rise. Keep torso relatively upright; avoid folding forward at the hips or waist. The ankles will definitely need to dorsiflex to pull the feet back in order to keep heels firmly planted on the bootboard.

So... are any of you actually practicing this move, on the leg lift chair at the gym, say?

 

[LiquidFeet]

So... are any of you actually practicing this move, on the leg lift chair at the gym, say?

I used to when I belonged to a gym with the chair. Doing other stuff in the home basement gym now, safe from breathing other people's air.

 

[cantunamunch]

I used to when I belonged to a gym with the chair.

And how did you scale the hip closure angle to the knee bend?

 

[markojp]

@MissySki , Sometimes it's the way you think of things that gets in the way. Classic zen example, "Don't think of a monkey when you take this medicine I'm giving you to take home." You will never be able to take the medicine without thinking of a monkey.
Forget about pressure for a while and just get low and pull your feet back.

Why get low? Why not just keep your feet under you and use one or two cues to accomplish that?

 

[LiquidFeet]

And how did you scale the hip closure angle to the knee bend?

You must be kidding. I didn't. I'm not that obsessed. I lifted my knees as high and as many times as I could. That's it.

By the way, this kind of strength isn't necessary for my personal skiing. I'm no muscle-bound buff skier and not a risk taker any more.

I don't do knee-to-armpit turns very often. I do them just for fun when no one is ahead of me on a somewhat wide trail. That doesn't happen very often here in NE. And when I do these turns I look at the trees on the side and think about how much it would hurt if something unexpected shot me off the trail at that speed. Sh** happens.

 

[cantunamunch]

You must be kidding.

No. I am not joking at all.

I didn't. I'm not that obsessed. I lifted my knees as high and as many times as I could. That's it.

Then you're simply not keeping the feet behind the hips - or at least you haven't verified that your stated instructions are even doable:

If you pull your feet back, so they feel like they are behind your hips, then you will not be in the back seat.

Sink low with your legs,

^Not meaningful. Not useful. Not even likely to achieve the stated result unless it's practiced without closing the hip. I.E. without actually sinking low. Zero hip closure for (however much) knee and ankle closure.

I lifted my knees as high and as many times as I could. That's it.

That's great but it does nothing to bring skis back under you. If the center of your foot is the mounting point of the ski, it is still in front of your COM.

By the way, this kind of strength isn't necessary for my personal skiing. I'm no muscle-bound buff skier and not a risk taker any more.

OK. *shrug* But this kind of strength is required for the description to have the effect claimed - and it is *not* intuitive.

I don't do knee-to-armpit turns very often.

OK. Except no one in this thread does them in moguls either, so why bring them up?

 

[mdf]

This is likely a potential issue for me as well. I’m a scientist and extremely analytical, so I can get way too inside of my head with what I think I’m “supposed” to be doing while skiing. Sometimes I listen to music purposely to try and focus on a beat and shut my head off while skiing.

I'm a very analytical person. I find the best route out of your head is to have a theory of how it works. It doesn't even have to be accurate or detailed, it just has to be enough to shut up the "how does it work" voice.

 

[François Pugh]

One thing I have noticed in my quest to learn how to properly ski bumps, after learning that slow meant much, much slower than I thought it meant, is that there is a limit to how slow you can go and still have your skis favorably respond. This limit varies from ski to ski, for any individual skier. Thinking that a SLIGHT increase in speed will make things easier, can help with problems induced by being timid.
Specific instruction on what to bend where and what forces to apply where as a result don't appear to be producing the desired result. Hence I am avoiding same.

 

[Lauren]

I'm a very analytical person. I find the best route out of your head is to have a theory of how it works. It doesn't even have to be accurate or detailed, it just has to be enough to shut up the "how does it work" voice.

I'm also a "how does it work" analytical person (engineer), but ironically, skiing is the one place I can turn it off...which is why I enjoy it so much!

 

[LiquidFeet]

You are such a pot stirrer today. My comments in red.

LiquidFeet said:
You must be kidding.

No. I am not joking at all.
OK then. You are implying that to ski bumps - as you understand my description - one needs the hip flexor and ab strength to lift the knees on one of these chairs. Maybe, if one is skiing the zipper line fast in competition. Those skiers do lift their knees up high in front of them, and their feet definitely are not behind their hips when they do -not anywhere close. But such strength is not needed if one is simply rec skiing bumps. My advice was directed not to an expert bump skier seeking better zip line speed, but cautious recreational bump skiers wanting to improve in the bumps who sometimes finds themselves in the back seat.

LiquidFeet said:
I didn't. I'm not that obsessed. I lifted my knees as high and as many times as I could. That's it.

Then you're simply not keeping the feet behind the hips - or at least you haven't verified that your stated instructions are even doable:
You're saying you think I'm not keeping my feet behind my hips when skiing bumps (not zipper line) because of how I used that chair back in the day? This doesn't make sense. You must mean something else.
And by the way, I said "they feel like they are behind your hips." I intentionally chose to use the word "feel." For bump skiers who sometimes find themselves in the back seat, doing what I suggested will result in feeling like the feet are behind the hips. That's a good direction to go in. The feet may not actually be behind the hips, but the effort of pulling them back while dorsiflexing to keep the heel seated in the boot will certainly feel different, and when embedded in muscle memory it should eliminate the back seat problems of missing turns and gaining speed in the bumps.

If you pull your feet back, so they feel like they are behind your hips, then you will not be in the back seat.

Sink low with your legs,

^Not meaningful. Not useful. Not even likely to achieve the stated result unless it's practiced withoutclosing the hip. I.E. without actually sinking low. Zero hip closure for (however much) knee and ankle closure.
Seems useful and meaningful to me. Sinking low as I meant it requires flexing at the hip to bring the knees forward, flexing at the knees to bring the feet back, and flexing at the ankle to keep the heel seated, while keeping torso upright. Maybe you are envisioning feet waaay behind the hips. Not what I was going for.
My vision (close enough):

Your vision with open hips and feet way back (?):

@markojp asked why sink low.
Why? To set oneself up to extend into the troughs as your feet pass through them. I prefer to stay low and extend feet outward and down as the turn hits the low points in the bumps, rather than to stay tall and flex to absorb the high points in the bumps. Both work. Conceptual models are important, but success can come from conceptual models that are quite different from each other.

I lifted my knees as high and as many times as I could. That's it.

That's great but it does nothing to bring skis back under you. If the center of your foot is the mounting point of the ski, it is still in front of your COM.
Bring the skis back up under you? Of course the knee raise chair exercises don't help with that. You bring the skis back up under you after you extend. I didn't talk about that because it unnecessarily complicated things. And I never said knee raises were a model for recreational bump skiing. I just answered your question as directly and simply as I could.

LiquidFeet said:
By the way, this kind of strength isn't necessary for my personal skiing. I'm no muscle-bound buff skier and not a risk taker any more.

OK. *shrug* But this kind of strength is required for the description to have the effect claimed - and it is *not* intuitive.
I know it isn't intuitive. It took me years to stumble upon this way to start a bump run. There are other ways. I offered mine. How about you offer yours?

LiquidFeet said:
I don't do knee-to-armpit turns very often.

OK. Except no one in this thread does them in moguls either, so why bring them up?
Hmm. Right, I don't know why I brought that up. Wrong thread.

 

[KingGrump]

I'm a very analytical person. I find the best route out of your head is to have a theory of how it works. It doesn't even have to be accurate or detailed, it just has to be enough to shut up the "how does it work" voice.

Best thing for head game is find something else for the head to do. Other than thinking. Remember the milk bottle run at W/B with @Tricia . You sad you did better since your head was occupied.

 

[markojp]

You are such a pot stirrer today. My comments in red.


No. I am not joking at all.
OK then. You are implying that to ski bumps - as you understand my description - one needs the hip flexor and ab strength to lift the knees on one of these chairs. Maybe, if one is skiing the zipper line fast in competition. Those skiers do lift their knees up high in front of them, and their feet definitely are not behind their hips when they do -not anywhere close. But such strength is not needed if one is simply rec skiing bumps. My advice was directed not to an expert bump skier seeking better zip line speed, but cautious recreational bump skiers wanting to improve in the bumps who sometimes finds themselves in the back seat.

Then you're simply not keeping the feet behind the hips - or at least you haven't verified that your stated instructions are even doable:
You're saying you think I'm not keeping my feet behind my hips when skiing bumps (not zipper line) because of how I used that chair back in the day? This doesn't make sense. You must mean something else.
And by the way, I said "they feel like they are behind your hips." I intentionally chose to use the word "feel." For bump skiers who sometimes find themselves in the back seat, doing what I suggested will result in feeling like the feet are behind the hips. That's a good direction to go in. The feet may not actually be behind the hips, but the effort of pulling them back while dorsiflexing to keep the heel seated in the boot will certainly feel different, and when embedded in muscle memory it should eliminate the back seat problems of missing turns and gaining speed in the bumps.


^Not meaningful. Not useful. Not even likely to achieve the stated result unless it's practiced withoutclosing the hip. I.E. without actually sinking low. Zero hip closure for (however much) knee and ankle closure.
Seems useful and meaningful to me. Sinking low as I meant it requires flexing at the hip to bring the knees forward, flexing at the knees to bring the feet back, and flexing at the ankle to keep the heel seated, while keeping torso upright. Maybe you are envisioning feet waaay behind the hips. Not what I was going for.
My vision (close enough):
View attachment 183218
Your vision with open hips and feet way back (?):
View attachment 183219
@markojp asked why sink low.
Why? To set oneself up to extend into the troughs as your feet pass through them. I prefer to stay low and extend feet outward and down as the turn hits the low points in the bumps, rather than to stay tall and flex to absorb the high points in the bumps. Both work. Conceptual models are important, but success can come from conceptual models that are quite different from each other.

That's great but it does nothing to bring skis back under you. If the center of your foot is the mounting point of the ski, it is still in front of your COM.
Bring the skis back up under you? Of course the knee raise chair exercises don't help with that. You bring the skis back up under you after you extend. I didn't talk about that because it unnecessarily complicated things. And I never said knee raises were a model for recreational bump skiing. I just answered your question as directly and simply as I could.

OK. *shrug* But this kind of strength is required for the description to have the effect claimed - and it is *not* intuitive.
I know it isn't intuitive. It took me years to stumble upon this way to start a bump run. There are other ways. I offered mine. How about you offer yours?

OK. Except no one in this thread does them in moguls either, so why bring them up?
Hmm. Right, I don't know why I brought that up. Wrong thread.

I'm completely lost, LF. Are you quoting yourself?