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Skis for maximizing your bump skiing practice time?

markojp

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She's responding to my post above which has nested quotes - and the formatting escaped its cages.

Ah! Got it. In that case, I'll say that for rec bump skiing, I'll go with LF, but I think you're talking about comp bump skiing, and LF is talking rec bumps. You're sort of talking past each other, no?
 

cantunamunch

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You are such a pot stirrer today. :ogbiggrin: My comments in red.


No. I am not joking at all.
OK then. You are implying that to ski bumps - as you understand my description - one needs the hip flexor and ab strength to lift the knees on one of these chairs.

No.

I am outright saying that, in order to ski any situation where one wants to bring skis back under one's bum instead of toilet seating, one needs the strength to do an exercise that no one is actually doing on one of these chairs.

, but cautious recreational bump skiers wanting to improve in the bumps who sometimes finds themselves in the back seat.

Yes, same goal.

Seems useful and meaningful to me. Sinking low as I meant it requires flexing at the hip to bring the knees forward, flexing at the knees to bring the feet back, and flexing at the ankle to keep the heel seated, while keeping torso upright. Maybe you are envisioning feet waaay behind the hips. Not what I was going for.
My vision (close enough):

View attachment 183218

See, we agree on the end goal.

My point requires, however, that you start with a pic where the skis are already in front of the CoM. Recovering those to back under requires the skier to attempt to achieve your second pose:

View attachment 183219



And that second pose gives you an idea of the actual exercise I was suggesting to do on the leg lift chair. And on the glute drive machine. And on the nordic curl setup.

@markojp asked why sink low.
Why? To set oneself up to extend into the troughs as your feet pass through them.

That's one reason. I've already shown you my conceptual model - and the pressure plate video supporting it - to help the body absorb the boot flexing shock instead of having the shin literally bouncing around pressuring both toe and heel.


Got it. In that case, I'll say that for rec bump skiing, I'll go with LF, but I think you're talking about comp bump skiing, and LF is talking rec bumps. You're sort of talking past each other, no?

Not really. I think we're achieving the same goal for the same people only I broke my model into smaller elements.

It just so happens that every comp bumper is strong enough to do a backscratcher move - because they actively train those muscles for bump CoM recovery - whereas the average rec bumper isn't half strong enough and getting actually out of the toilet seat is by hook, by crook, by ACL tear, and by bumside fall.

I prefer to stay low and extend feet outward and down as the turn hits the low points in the bumps, rather than to stay tall and flex to absorb the high points in the bumps. Both work. Conceptual models are important, but success can come from conceptual models that are quite different from each other.


Bring the skis back up under you? Of course the knee raise chair exercises don't help with that.


Which is why I never advocated doing that specific exercise but a different one entirely. On the same machine, sure, but a different exercise.

You bring the skis back up under you after you extend.

Time delay -> skis are already in front of you and you're in the toilet seat. Hip flex is maxed. Extending pushes your skis further in front of the CoM. And trying to fix skis in front with just knees and quads is ACL tearing time.

Why not use the glutes and hamstrings near-continuously, with as open a hip as you can manage - absorbing with hip flex only just enough to not have violent boot rebound?


EDITED to tame runaway colour tags.
 
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LiquidFeet

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skis are already in front of you and you're in the toilet seat. Hip flex is maxed. Extending pushes your skis further in front of the CoM. And trying to fix skis in front with just knees and quads is ACL tearing time.

Why not use the glutes and hamstrings near-continuously, with as open a hip as you can manage - absorbing with hip flex only just enough to not have violent boot rebound?
Tuna, the extending I mention is to the side, never to the front. I'm not coaching zipper line skiing where the skier maintains a straight line down the hill and goes directly up and over the humps, necessitating the backpedalling movement pattern.

I think you are assuming a move aggressive approach to bump skiing than I'm discussing. That may be the mismatch here.
 

cantunamunch

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^ she is absolutely training to open the hip at will.

Tuna, the extending I mention is to the side, never to the front.

I understood that, but if the hip is closed, you have no choice. All extension is unwillingly also to the front. Therefore any hip closure that isn't actual shock absorption is putting you in a disadvantaged, time delayed position.

I think you are assuming a move aggressive approach to bump skiing than I'm discussing. That may be the mismatch here.

I'm not. I'm talking about a recovery move that will work even on XC skis on moderate downhills with no boot spine to help, on Snowblades when crossing ruts... and on inline skates in a terrain park/pump track. https://www.skitalk.com/threads/2022-inline-skating-thread.26857/page-3
 
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cantunamunch

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For those that missed the prelude, this video shows the pressure variation/bounce from the flexed front to the spine of the boot and back again:



My contention is that ^that is what we're absorbing at the hip, any more hip action than required is a liability not an advantage. For anyone.
 

LiquidFeet

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I understood that, but if the hip is closed, you have no choice. All extension is unwillingly also to the front. Therefore any hip closure that isn't actual shock absorption is putting you in a disadvantaged, time delayed position.
At extension to the side, the hip needs to be open. Opening it is part of extending.

You are so certain there's a major fundamental problem with my description, so you keep finding things. I get that. But....

How about you provide your own description as an alternative? That would be so much more helpful to whatever interested readers we might still have left here. Getting negative in this way drives people away. There is an altlernative.
 

cantunamunch

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At extension to the side, the hip needs to be open.

Sure.

How about you provide your own description as an alternative?

I already have. Starting with my post to @Tony S within the ski flex subthread above.

Since it didn't seem to take, I'll rephrase and use your terms. To wit:

Cue the pullback as if you are trying to achieve this

1668702471852.png


first. If you don't, trying to achieve this:

1668702819186.png


is actually going to give you this:


1668702904136.png


because your skis and your boots are stiff enough for rec skiing instead of being soft and short for pure bumping.

Extending from B3 is begging for an ACL tear - and is too slow to retain control.


Or, in my terms - Gate the bump with your knees then soak any shock with your hips. Extend to gate again.


I've already made the analogy to inline skating.

In cycling terms, if you have a bunny hop, you've already spent the entire summer doing the move:
It's the part you use to get the back wheel up and over.
 

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Scruffy

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Here's some stuff that almost applies. Thoughts?

Everything I've seen or read so far from John Leffler is golden for racing and conditioning.
 

LiquidFeet

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Everything I've seen or read so far from John Leffler is golden for racing and conditioning.
Right. That video is all about racing in gates.
I posted it because the hips stay open.

What's exhibited in the video is close to what tuna's been promoting only because the hips are "open." I've not seen any rec bump skiers moving through that position in the bumps.
 

applecart

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I've been wondering about the same thing. I'm going to take the Women's ski week at Taos and I have a pair of Blossom White Outs and DPS Pagoda 100s. I want to take the Blossom's for bump training/lessons because I feel like they should focus me on my technique, which is the point, right? Anyone here have an opinion on the Blossoms in the Taos bumps? I love the skis on groomers, but I'm a bit tentative on them in the bumps. They are not as forgiving as my old BP88s that I just sold!
 

cantunamunch

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I've not seen any rec bump skiers moving through that position in the bumps.

There's a bit of difference between 'moving through' and 'using the same muscle activation as would be needed to achieve'.

Setting that to one side for now, there was absolutely no race orientation to the ESA Stowe clinic where I first got the material :)

IIRC, @Tricia was in the same (JB's) class, not sure about @mdf.
 

Scruffy

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I've been wondering about the same thing. I'm going to take the Women's ski week at Taos and I have a pair of Blossom White Outs and DPS Pagoda 100s. I want to take the Blossom's for bump training/lessons because I feel like they should focus me on my technique, which is the point, right? Anyone here have an opinion on the Blossoms in the Taos bumps? I love the skis on groomers, but I'm a bit tentative on them in the bumps. They are not as forgiving as my old BP88s that I just sold!

The Blossoms should be fine in Taos bumps, @applecart. The instructors there should teach you the line you'll need to take through the bumps, and the form to ski it for even the stiffest ski, which the whiteouts are not. Last year I skied Taos at the gathering with my Blossom AM85s which is just a slightly wider version of whiteouts/AM77.
 

KingGrump

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I've been wondering about the same thing. I'm going to take the Women's ski week at Taos and I have a pair of Blossom White Outs and DPS Pagoda 100s. I want to take the Blossom's for bump training/lessons because I feel like they should focus me on my technique, which is the point, right? Anyone here have an opinion on the Blossoms in the Taos bumps? I love the skis on groomers, but I'm a bit tentative on them in the bumps. They are not as forgiving as my old BP88s that I just sold!

The Whiteout was renamed AM85 last season.
Mamie won a pair on one of the forum contest. (Thank you SskiTalk)
It's a fairly light and compliant ski. Should be perfect for the Taos bumps. Definitely bring it.
 

Tony S

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The Blossoms should be fine in Taos bumps, @applecart. The instructors there should teach you the line you'll need to take through the bumps, and the form to ski it for even the stiffest ski, which the whiteouts are not. Last year I skied Taos at the gathering with my Blossom AM85s which is just a slightly wider version of whiteouts/AM77.

The Whiteout was renamed AM85 last season.
Mamie won a pair on one of the forum contest. (Thank you SskiTalk)
It's a fairly light and compliant ski. Should be perfect for the Taos bumps. Definitely bring it.


First, let's straighten out a minor factual glitch. The former White Out is now the AM 77, not the AM 85. Scruffy's right about that one.


I want to take the Blossom's for bump training/lessons because I feel like they should focus me on my technique, which is the point, right?

I have a different take on this question from the two august personages above.

@applecart, are you saying that you are taking only one pair of skis to Taos, and you're asking which pair to take?

Before we even get to talking about bumps, I think the answer to that question is pretty clear: If it looks like there's going to be plenty of nice soft snow, you'll have more fun on a ski designed for that - not the White Out. If conditions are looking crappy and you're therefore figuring on a lot of groomer time, then yes, bring the White Out.

As for a ski for learning bumps, the way I see it is: "Easy terrain, challenging ski. Challenging terrain, easy ski." Most people who post things like you and the OP are posting would put any non-trivial mogul run into the "challenging terrain" category. In that circumstance you want a gear setup that will get out of the way and let you focus on becoming acquainted with what the most effective movement patterns feel like, and how to repeat them. The last thing you want is to be allllmost there on a particular move and then get spanked by your skis because you didn't get it 110% perfect.

Anyone here have an opinion on the Blossoms in the Taos bumps? I love the skis on groomers, but I'm a bit tentative on them in the bumps. They are not as forgiving as my old BP88s that I just sold!

KG and Scruffy maintain that the Blossoms are easy going in the bumps. I just don't agree, especially reading between the lines a little bit here.

The White Out is an edgy carver at heart. As edgy carvers go, is it very user friendly? Yes! If you're skiing it in bumps, is it much easier than a stiff ski like a Fischer Curv GT or an FIS GS ski? Yes! Compared with off-piste-oriented 80-something skis, like the ones discussed early in this thread, are the White Outs a gimme in moguls? No! Not at all.

Scruffy habitually skis at double the speed (and therefore with a multiple of the kinetic energy) of a normal human. Do you? KG skis 100 days or something a season at the most challenging areas in the country. Do you? You see where I'm going here?

So if you're taking two pairs of skis, you're all set; play it by ear once you're there. If you're taking one pair, leave the Blossoms behind if it's going to be a lovely powder-ish week.
 

KingGrump

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First, let's straighten out a minor factual glitch. The former White Out is now the AM 77, not the AM 85. Scruffy's right about that one.

Sorry, my bad. Got it mixed up with the pass-wind crosswind @mdf demo at Mammoth the season prior.

From my observation of skis on locals and regulars I normally skied with at Taos. Usually 85 to 95 all mountain.
 

applecart

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I've seen Mr. Grump ski and I am not at his level. I tried the 77s at Alta last year on a bit of off-piste terrain and I felt that I didn't have the control I wanted. I had skied that year at Taos in a private ski week with Derek but I wasn't on the 77s; I was on some Black Crows Captis that I rented. I liked them, but ONLY on the bumps. I think you are right, @Tony S .
 

SSSdave

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@Tony S >>>If it looks like there's going to be plenty of nice soft snow, you'll have more fun on a ski designed for that...
"challenging terrain" category. In that circumstance you want a gear setup that will get out of the way and let you focus on becoming acquainted with what the most effective movement patterns feel like, and how to repeat them.


Well stated wisdom. Ski with a tool for your most exhilarating fun. Gives us old guys with decades of neural plasticity built up some advantage.
 

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