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Skis with Tail Release in Unreleasable Snow

tomahawkins

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PWN had some challenging snow this year. A handful of storm cycles dumped a ton of snow followed up with rained leaving a heavy, dense, tail grabbing layer. Not quite refrozen, but nothing you could consider soft. My Bonafides were fun, but on days like these the tail would lock up making turning difficult at best; at worst the conditions got down right hazardous. @Posaune referred to it as leg breaking snow.

On one such day on the Friday before closing, the boarders and the rockered skiers appeared not even to be challenged by the snow conditions, but were having a blast surfing this snow. What makes a ski good in these conditions? A rockered tip? A rockered tail? If the tail provides the most benefit, why don't we see skis with minimal tip rocker and significant tail rocker? We see quite a few skis with it the other way around: rockered tip, minimal tail rocker.

Looking at skis to fill this gap for next season. Short list includes:
  • Enforcer 104 Free
  • Woodsman 102/110
  • M-Free 108
  • Hotshot
  • Peak 104
Suggestions?
 
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Tony S

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PWN had some challenging snow this year. A handful of storm cycles dumped a ton of snow followed up with rained leaving a heavy, dense, tail grabbing layer. Not quite refrozen, but nothing you could consider soft. My Bonafides were fun, but on days like these the tail would lock up making turning difficult at best; at worst the conditions got down right hazardous. @Posaune referred to it as leg breaking snow.

On one such day on the Friday before closing, the boarders and the rockered skiers appeared not even to be challenged by the snow conditions, but were having a blast surfing this snow. What makes a ski good in these conditions? A rockered tip? A rockered tail? If the tail provides the most benefit, why don't we see skis with minimal tip rocker and significant tail rocker? We see quite a few skis with it the other way around: rockered tip, minimal tail rocker.

Looking at skis to fill this gap for next season. Short list includes:
  • Enforcer 104 Free
  • Woodsman 102/110
  • M-Free 108
  • Hotshot
  • Peak 104
Suggestions?
Wait wait wait. Weren't you the "no rocker" purist guy like two weeks ago? And now this ^ ?
 

Tom Co.

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For leg breaking snow:
K2 Pontoon 157-132-122
I have not tried them but have seen them on the hill blasting through the schmo
 

David Chaus

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The Woodsman 102/108 are good with this, that said my Billy Goats 116 (the current version is 118) are really good in this kind of heavy snow, a bit more pivoty than the Woodsman.

That said, I’d want the Billy Goat 108 (custom ordered with a regular layup rather than tour layup as it was marketed).
 

Rod9301

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Is it possible that you're starting the turn with skidding the skis, instead of putting turn 5 on edge?
 

Giotto

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@tomahawkins where did you ski this Friday?

The wide skis that I used this season were Head Monster 98 and Enforcer 104 free. One day, I found some untracked, crap, heavy snow at Stevens Pass, far right of Seventh. I was on 72mm skis and it was horrible. I changed my skis to E104 free and tried again. It was easier to ski that snow, but the experience was still bad. My point: the E104 is great, it releases the tail easier than the Monster 98, but still it won't do miracles in some of the conditions we had this year.
 
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tomahawkins

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Wait wait wait. Weren't you the "no rocker" purist guy like two weeks ago? And now this ^ ?
@Tony S , I'm not a fanatic. I seek out moderation. I think my ideal ski would be a cross between an S/Force Bold and a Billy Goat.

sforcebold.jpg
 
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tomahawkins

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@tomahawkins where did you ski this Friday?

The wide skis that I used this season were Head Monster 98 and Enforcer 104 free. One day, I found some untracked, crap, heavy snow at Stevens Pass, far right of Seventh. I was on 72mm skis and it was horrible. I changed my skis to E104 free and tried again. It was easier to ski that snow, but the experience was still bad. My point: the E104 is great, it releases the tail easier than the Monster 98, but still it won't do miracles in some of the conditions we had this year.

It was Baker last week under an odd set of circumstances. They closed midweek the week prior and a 16" storm on Monday sat around baking in the sun, getting rained on, refreezing, and who knows what else. By Friday the 16" congealed into a dense 4" of -- I'm not even sure what to call it. In all honesty it was the only day this season I felt like I was definitely on the wrong skis. Otherwise the Bonafides worked well for typical Baker snow: mank, coral reef, rain, ice, compacted cascade concrete. It even excelled in atypical Baker conditions: dry, light powder.

I'm a big M98 fan so good to know you like the E104 as an alternative. You're right. Some days this season were nearly unskiable.
 

Tricia

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I was thinking the Sender Ti when I read this.
 
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tomahawkins

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I was thinking the Sender Ti when I read this.

But the sender has pretty minimal rocker in the tail and I'm guessing that's what helps the most. The Billy Goat/Bold was tongue in cheek, but I am curious how a cambered front/rockered tail would ski. Or maybe something with a really soft tail w/o rocker...
 

cantunamunch

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But the sender has pretty minimal rocker in the tail and I'm guessing that's what helps the most. The Billy Goat/Bold was tongue in cheek, but I am curious how a cambered front/rockered tail would ski. Or maybe something with a really soft tail w/o rocker...

You're done for this season, yes? Experimentation is out?
 

Tricia

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But the sender has pretty minimal rocker in the tail and I'm guessing that's what helps the most. The Billy Goat/Bold was tongue in cheek, but I am curious how a cambered front/rockered tail would ski. Or maybe something with a really soft tail w/o rocker...
I feel like it has enough rocker without being too rockery
 

AngryAnalyst

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I think you want something ~108 underfoot for this based on my experience in similar sounding snow conditions not in PNW.

The M-Free 108, Moment Wildcat 108, custom core Billy goat 110 would all be strong choices in my opinion. If you also want a powder ski the 118 Billy Goat could make sense but just for dense snow I don’t think you really need the width.

In terms of general attributes, I agree on tip and tail rocker (full reverse might also be suitable but I don’t know of too many skis that still are). I also want reasonable mass and something kind of stiff. The skis above have those characteristics in common. I own various flavors of each, I think the 192 M-Free 108 is the best in tight terrain with somewhat firm snow option, but the old 116 Billy Goat is/was the best pow and tight terrain ski I’ve ever used. The Wildcat 108 I have is the touring core, so take this with a grain of salt, but I think the shape is a bit more park focused than the M-Free 108.

The reason tail rocker without tip rocker is rare, I think, is because tail rocker is much more detrimental to hard snow performance than tip rocker is. I believe this is true because most wide skis that have good edge hold tend to have flatter tails. By contrast, tip rocker doesn’t have much deleterious impact on hard snow performance so it shows up on lots of ski (just very little of it for piste focused stuff).
 

charlier

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As suggested, rocketed ski are best in dense, somewhat breakable crust, firm skim crust, etc. Many professional PNW skiers use Line or Moment skis. Next, decide on ski flex, soft side, stiff side or stiff tails, onwards.
 

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