Skis with Tail Release in Unreleasable Snow

[tomahawkins]

Changes the angle of the boot spine relative to the tail

The shim leans me back, I compensate by leaning forward, and by doing so I've shifted the center of pressure forward. Got it!

 

[cantunamunch]

The shim leans me back, I compensate by leaning forward, and by doing so I've shifted the center of pressure forward. Got it!

I'd rather think of it as: The "neutral", i.e. upright body, position of the boot spine pre-loads the tail less.

Think of the boot spine as being a class 3 lever - like wheelbarrow handles. Rotating the effort end of the lever (boot spine, handles) towards the pivot point (tail, wheel) is analogous to angling the wheelbarrow handles away from the ground.

 

[Hankj]

Question:

If someone had trouble releasing the tails, does it mean that the first 1/4 of the turn is skidded, ie rotating the skis?

It seems to me that if you start the turn by putting the old downhill ski in edge, Emmythere's no issue in threading the tails.

Even in bad snow, wet or wind affected.

From the cheap seats:

Sure,this makes sense. But the issue (for me) is that on a manky chunky 48 degree slope, it takes more cajones than I carry to consistently point it downhill, tip the skis and drive throught the natural sidecut. I can't handle that sort of skiing on imperfect steeps. I have to get more sideways by breaking the tails loose ... the tails necessarily need to brush around a bit.

I was actually chatting this issue with an off duty ski instructor on a chair. He told me yeah, try to get conscious of unweighting and hopping your tails a bit in situations where you feel like you'll lock up. I said oh, like the way people skied on straight skis in the 80s. He said yeah, it's a useful technique that can be done subtly, and that skis today auto-turn so easily on less steep terrain. He said that a lot of people who learned on easy equipment have no idea how to pop their tails around when they get sticky.

Guilty as charged I think .

 

[Hankj]

And regarding the press with the balls of your feet thing, this is also something that I've heard from a couple of instructors. I've also heard push your shins into the front of the boots. Between these techniques as mental reference points, the former feels like it works better for me because I end up pushing the ski down onto the snow in an even way. When I push my shins forward it feels like I'm pushing pressure less evenly into smaller parts of the ski in front of my foot ....

But maybe I'm misunderstanding - are you saying to push DOWN through your shin bone? Not forward as I've heard a bunch?

 

[LiquidFeet]

You can use the entire ski, including the tip, with your weight under the tibia. I do it

I do too.

It's a common misperception that weight under the tibia equals back-seat skiing. And it's this misperception that maintains the ball-of-foot dictum.

 

[LiquidFeet]

And regarding the press with the balls of your feet thing, this is also something that I've heard from a couple of instructors. I've also heard push your shins into the front of the boots. Between these techniques as mental reference points, the former feels like it works better for me because I end up pushing the ski down onto the snow in an even way. When I push my shins forward it feels like I'm pushing pressure less evenly into smaller parts of the ski in front of my foot ....

But maybe I'm misunderstanding - are you saying to push DOWN through your shin bone? Not forward as I've heard a bunch?

Maybe this will add clarity.

1. Lean shins forward by bending the ankle forward, so that you feel "shin-tongue" contact. This is specifically an ankle action. Then adjust the upper body so that it hovers over the toe piece of the binding. Feel the increase in "shin-tongue" pressure that results from this hovering. The combination of these two things, ankle bend and upper body hovering, presses the tip down by moving the front of the cuff forward. Leverage is taking care of shovel pressure.

2. Adjust stance such that your body weight is directly over the tibia, your shin bone. Result is that you will feel underfoot pressure strongest under the back of the arch/front of the heel. Think: "arch-heel." This placement of body weight takes care of the tail pressing down onto the snow. It does not put the skier in the back seat because the tongue-shin action creates forward pressure at the same time. The two work together to produce tip to tail pressure along the ski, so you feel "centered."

3. If you wish to rock tip-to-tail, adjust where your upper body is hovering. Move upper body more forward for increased tip pressure, or less forward for more tail pressure. All the while keep ankles bent forward and keep arch-heel pressure underfoot. Those two don't change when rocking ski pressure from tip to tail.

 

[Hankj]

Maybe this will add clarity.

1. Lean shins forward by bending the ankle forward, so that you feel "tongue-shin" contact. This is specifically an ankle action. Then adjust the upper body so that it hovers over the toe piece of the binding. Feel the increase in "shin-tongue" pressure that results from this hovering. The combination of these two things, ankle bend and upper body hovering, presses the tip down by moving the front of the cuff forward. Leverage is taking care of shovel pressure.

2. Adjust stance such that your body weight is directly over the tibia, your shin bone. Result is that you will feel underfoot pressure strongest under the back of the arch/front of the heel. Think: "arch-heel." This placement of body weight takes care of the tail pressing down onto the snow. It does not put the skier in the back seat because the tongue-shin action creates forward pressure at the same time. The two work together to keep ski tip to tail pressure, so you feel "centered."

3. If you wish to rock tip-to-tail, adjust where your upper body is hovering. Move upper body more forward for increased tip pressure, or less forward for more tail pressure. All the while keep ankles bent forward and keep arch-heel pressure underfoot. Those two don't change when rocking ski pressure from tip to tail.

Thank you

 

[Rod9301]

Good question. In the conditions in question, there was no surface to support the edge. The skis were submerged in heavy -- I'm going to call it Jello that was left out on the counter for several days -- and any pressure on the edge was negligible compared to the pressure across the full base. Sidecut induced bending was not there at all. I would tip in somewhat aggressively to initiate a carved turn, but the skis just tracked straight.

So tip rocker then? If the conditions won't let the sidecut bend a ski, use a ski that's already pre-bent? But I'm surprised the Bonafide's shovels didn't provide lift to do this job. Maybe that's expected: traditional tips plow through, they don't lift. If this is true it gives credence to skis with tip rocker and minimal tail rocker (Sender Ti).

If you put your skis on edge and they went straight, you probably don't have enough weight on the outside ski.

In any kind of snow, if you put enough weight on the outside ski, the ski will bend and turn.

 

[markojp]

Re Sender Ti's, to me their defining problem was that the tails locked in HARD in manky sludgey choppy and/or heavy snow. I thought they were very good and accessible skis all around, albeit not a big sweet spot. In tough steeper snow if I got in the backseat for even one turn the tails death-locked.

I'd wager that the difference of opinion on these skis' tails is an ability level/technique thing - I'm not technically good enough to make Sender Ti's flow in steep mank (think the lower half of Crystal Mountain Northback). Technically sound skiers who constantly pressure the ball of the foot (or at least do when the going gets tricky) never notice the tails locking up; my technique comes and goes, and Sender Ti's expose that.


Kind of reminds me of the episode of The Simpsons where Homer is getting a custom suit made and he sucks his gut in. The fancy tailor says no, let it out and we will conceal. That's my kind of ski

The issue with the Sender Ti is the mount point. It's really forward, even at 0. I skied the 186 at -3 a day last season (20-21)... $$$ money $$$.

(Rather than ball of the foot, ski through the arch.)

 

[markojp]

And regarding the press with the balls of your feet thing, this is also something that I've heard from a couple of instructors. I've also heard push your shins into the front of the boots. Between these techniques as mental reference points, the former feels like it works better for me because I end up pushing the ski down onto the snow in an even way. When I push my shins forward it feels like I'm pushing pressure less evenly into smaller parts of the ski in front of my foot ....

But maybe I'm misunderstanding - are you saying to push DOWN through your shin bone? Not forward as I've heard a bunch?

FWIW, I spend a lot of time clinicing instructors to NOT push their shins into the cuff and to NOT ski on the balls of their feet. Much of the general public are in the backseat. A lot of instructors including L3's, are too far forward after apex.... Anyhow, that's all I have to say about that.

 

[Wilhelmson]

FWIW, I spend a lot of time clinicing instructors to NOT push their shins into the cuff and to NOT ski on the balls of their feet. Much of the general public are in the backseat. A lot of instructors including L3's, are too far forward after apex.... Anyhow, that's all I have to say about that.

Should I ask the L3 tester for my money back? It might not be perfect but it’s one of the only things people understand, and it works. Just don’t over do it.

 

[markojp]

Should I ask the L3 tester for my money back? It might not be perfect but it’s one of the only things people understand, and it works. Just don’t over do it.

I'll say more. Hopefully it will clarify. It's a common misunderstanding among even solid L3's, that we've got to lever hard on and over the front of the boot through the turn. I'm sure you got a good lesson and found a better 'forward' compared to where you were. Maybe learning to grip and releasing a baseball is a better analogy. It means one thing to most of us (myself included), but to a pitcher/pitching coach, it's something much more nuanced.

FWIW, pressuring the ball of the foot is something we generally move our staff away from. Sometimes there's a bit of incredulous disbelief until we train and ski the alternatives. I generally don't teach or coach rolling up on the ball of the foot, but do get very specific about where feet are under the CoM, skiing through the arch, a mechanism or 2 for closing the ankle to gain pressure and connection along the bottom of the foot (met pads to heel), and that 'forward' is down the hill, not across... even with first timers.

I know all this might come off as condescending toward L2 and L3 instructors, but that's not my intent at all. I chalk it up to internet communication which can leave too much room for umbrage and misunderstanding vs. meeting and skiing/coaching on the hill. The old saying when you get your pin? "Congratulations, now the real learning begins." It's a cliche, but it really is true. Skiing is always about expanding one's toolbox and ways of understanding what, why, and how skis are doing what they do on snow.

 

[Wilhelmson]

I'll say more. Hopefully it will clarify. It's a common misunderstanding among even solid L3's, that we've got to lever hard on and over the front of the boot through the turn. I'm sure you got a good lesson and found a better 'forward' compared to where you were. Maybe learning to grip and releasing a baseball is a better analogy. It means one thing to most of us (myself included), but to a pitcher/pitching coach, it's something much more nuanced.

FWIW, pressuring the ball of the foot is something we generally move our staff away from. Sometimes there's a bit of incredulous disbelief until we train and ski the alternatives. I generally don't teach or coach rolling up on the ball of the foot, but do get very specific about where feet are under the CoM, skiing through the arch, a mechanism or 2 for closing the ankle to gain pressure and connection along the bottom of the foot (met pads to heel), and that 'forward' is down the hill, not across... even with first timers.

I know all this might come off as condescending toward L2 and L3 instructors, but that's not my intent at all. I chalk it up to internet communication which can leave too much room for umbrage and misunderstanding vs. meeting and skiing/coaching on the hill. The old saying when you get your pin? "Congratulations, now the real learning begins." It's a cliche, but it really is true. Skiing is always about expanding one's toolbox and ways of understanding what, why, and how skis are doing what they do on snow.

Yup, I think it was more for my wife who was taking the lesson with me. My problem is my hands not my ankles.

 

[Lauren]

Suggestions?

Snowboard.

Sorry...had to say it. That type of snow is a lot more fun on a snowboard.

But if you're not willing to go that route, I tend to go fat, large turn radius, and lots of rocker...anything that will float you to the top of the snow and keep you there with no effort on your part (basically mimic what a snowboard does). The old Volkl One is my ski of choice in the thick deep stuff.

For current stock...the Salomon QST106 could be a fun one. I had a blast on the 98 this past winter in 8-10in of fresh, thick, "leg breaking snow". The ski is so light that it was easy to unweight the tail and throw around rather than waiting for the release. The wide, rockered, soft tip floated over everything keeping you on top of the snow, instead of in it. I think the 106 would've taken the float to the next level.

 

[cantunamunch]

Snowboard.

Sorry...had to say it. That type of snow is a lot more fun on a snowboard.

If he's going to go to the dark side, he should just go all the way.

Sale Snowboards | Nidecker

www.nidecker.com

But if you're not willing to go that route, I tend to go fat, large turn radius, and lots of rocker...anything that will float you to the top of the snow and keep you there with no effort on your part (basically mimic what a snowboard does). The old Volkl One is my ski of choice in the thick deep stuff.

I really kinda miss that era of ski design. And the proof is the Volkl Ones and Blizzard Answers sitting downstairs with thick coats of fresh warm wax

 

[tomahawkins]

If he's going to go to the dark side, he should just go all the way.

Sale Snowboards | Nidecker

www.nidecker.com

A fellow Bakerite recommends SnowGunz.

MONOSKIS SNOWGUNZ Piste, Freeride, Rando, Custom, Fixations

Retrouvez tous les Monoskis Snowgunz 2022, pour la meilleure qualité de Monoski à Prix Direct Usine pour tous les skieurs ✔ le Monoski pour toute la famille ✔ les Armes pour la Piste et le Freeride ✔ Developés par les Guides et Moniteurs de Ski depuis Chamonix ✔ Livraison 48h Offerte

www.snowgunz.com

 

[markojp]

Yup, I think it was more for my wife who was taking the lesson with me. My problem is my hands not my ankles.

Can't say without seeing you ski, but in many if not most cases, hands are a symptom, not a cause. Just MHO of course.

 

[no edge]

I'm one who mentioned "balls of feet". I retract that statement. (humbly)

My forefoot is always shimmed. For me it allows better positioning to pressure the the shins quickly and without unnecessary force. It allows pressure to be applied only when needed. I have experienced frustraton in the past, like I was battling with the boot - like there seemed to be a need to ski all the time with shins agains the front of the boot. That is not good skiing.

When I ski steeps and bumps and terrain in general I find that my body position is in its most natural position - that it is easy to use the front of the ski and the boot when needed. Also, when tumbling into the next turn on steeps, I like being able to drop down. The boot flexes best in that situation. Powder is also helpful. Groomers can be more dificult for me.

Best skiing occurs when I am standing on the whole foot with the ability to flex the boot quickly and not excessively.

Too much pressure forward will cause the skis to wash out in back, and that is not good in sticky situations.

 

[James]

The weight should be under the tibia

So what part of the tibia would that be?
The distal end, in the middle?
If you’re on your feet, the force is going to come from “under” the tibia.

 

[cantunamunch]

Maybe this will add clarity.

1. Lean shins forward by bending the ankle forward, so that you feel "shin-tongue" contact. This is specifically an ankle action. Then adjust the upper body so that it hovers over the toe piece of the binding. Feel the increase in "shin-tongue" pressure that results from this hovering. The combination of these two things, ankle bend and upper body hovering, presses the tip down by moving the front of the cuff forward. Leverage is taking care of shovel pressure.

2. Adjust stance such that your body weight is directly over the tibia, your shin bone. Result is that you will feel underfoot pressure strongest under the back of the arch/front of the heel. Think: "arch-heel." This placement of body weight takes care of the tail pressing down onto the snow. It does not put the skier in the back seat because the tongue-shin action creates forward pressure at the same time. The two work together to produce tip to tail pressure along the ski, so you feel "centered."

3. If you wish to rock tip-to-tail, adjust where your upper body is hovering. Move upper body more forward for increased tip pressure, or less forward for more tail pressure. All the while keep ankles bent forward and keep arch-heel pressure underfoot. Those two don't change when rocking ski pressure from tip to tail.

Are you familiar with the MTB 'foot wedge' concept?

This should probably go into physical fitness (skating scissored) or maybe into nordic/tele - but your post specifically makes me think of: