Slide With Respect Survey Launch

[no edge]

Liked the survey.

I have meet plenty of 13-22 year old newcomers. Nearly all know nothing about the code. I encourage them to get familiar with it. It should be posted plus a sign telling people to know the code.

I have been hit a few times. Once by a snowboarder who was goin way too fast. I got pissed off at him but backed off. He begged for mercy - ("dude, dude I'm sorry"). He was on the snow dusting my skis off. So I was kind.

The other one was getting landed on by a jumper. I was standing right in the landing. I decided It was his fault. Nobody got too injured.

I danced with a lady at Baker. That woman could yell. Called me a Canadian.

I also believe people should communicate when necessary. This is especially true on challenging trails. People stopping close to the edge of the trail when close to the trees and overtaking - to name a few.

And finally, especially treat kids with caution.

 

[martyg]

Nice piece by Unofficial Networks. We have extended the deadline until December 15th. If you haven't participated, please do. If you have, thank you. https://unofficialnetworks.com/2022/11/22/slide-with-respect-project-survey/

 

[jt10000]

Liked the survey.

I have meet plenty of 13-22 year old newcomers. Nearly all know nothing about the code. I encourage them to get familiar with it. It should be posted plus a sign telling people to know the code.

I have been hit a few times. Once by a snowboarder who was goin way too fast. I got pissed off at him but backed off. He begged for mercy - ("dude, dude I'm sorry"). He was on the snow dusting my skis off. So I was kind.

Yeah, if someone hits you and is apologetic and scared, they'll learn. Be firm.

I had someone hit me last season. I wasn't hurt and actually didn't fall - they did. There was a little kid in front of me (not mine) who could have been slammed. They started laughing, and I went off on them. I was so mad.

 

[martyg]

A big thanks to Denver Westword and Michael Roberts for covering FLC's study of reckless ski and ride behavior. Want to make your voice heard? Please take the survey, and share with your friends. The survey closes December 15th. https://www.slidewithrespect.com/

https://www.westword.com/.../colorado-ski-area-injuries...

 

[James]

You could just go through youtube crash videos and see the comments. It’s incredibly depressing.

This in the last year, for an 8 yr old video. Lots of similar.
—————-
The guy in the red was skiing at a 90 degree angel to the run. He totally cut him off because the guy going down was taking a slight angle to go to the right of all the people.
——————-

 

[Wilhelmson]

The survey should say thank you at the end.

if some dumb ass hits me it’s about 60/40 their fault since I should have watched out. The worst are the good skiers that just don’t give a crap.
I have neither been hit nor hit anyone. I was coming up over a mogul pretty fast on Castlerock Run and a little girl had fallen on the backside of the bump. I sort of torqued my knee stopping on a dime. Her parent was very relived. I sort of felt sick for the rest of the day thinking what could happen.

 

[Sibhusky]

You could just go through youtube crash videos and see the comments. It’s incredibly depressing.

This in the last year, for an 8 yr old video. Lots of similar.
—————-
The guy in the red was skiing at a 90 degree angel to the run. He totally cut him off because the guy going down was taking a slight angle to go to the right of all the people.
——————-

Sickening collision. Guy in black should have been giving much wider berth to the guy in the red. I feel like guy in black didn't even see guy in red because he was moving very fast and might have been worrying about the crowd that was stopped. Guy in red might have avoided if he'd looked uphill, but he wasn't taking up the whole slope with his turns and the guy in black was coming very fast. Even if he'd looked uphill I'm not sure he could have avoided being hit

 

[no edge]

Sickening collision. Guy in black should have been giving much wider berth to the guy in the red. I feel like guy in black didn't even see guy in red because he was moving very fast and might have been worrying about the crowd that was stopped. Guy in red might have avoided if he'd looked uphill, but he wasn't taking up the whole slope with his turns and the guy in black was coming very fast. Even if he'd looked uphill I'm not sure he could have avoided being hit

I see the guy in black as the uphill skier. He is at fault. Add to that his speed - he appears to be coming in too fast.

There was already something going on with people standing around. Was there a toboggan and patroller coming down to the area? What was that all about?

 

[no edge]

Chaos - that's the wild card. It is typical that the code is discussed with responsible skiers understanding what is expected. These people would usually fall under the category of "adults". When people are moving on a traverse somewhat slowly, it is easy to tell another skier that you are on their right. This is a good thing to do but I would say that it's not a common place for a crash or one where an injury is likely.

 

[fatbob]

I see the guy in black as the uphill skier. He is at fault. Add to that his speed - he appears to be coming in too fast.

There was already something going on with people standing around. Was there a toboggan and patroller coming down to the area? What was that all about?

There was already an incident that the patroller was attending. It's quite possible the victim was skiing to avoid them and then got slammed by the guy coming in too hot. Too much speed, not enough skill.

I think one youtube commentator put it best though

Clueless butt-chapeaus like this guy are why I spend almost as much time looking uphill as down. You shouldn't have to look out for clowns like this bombing down, but do it anyway.

 

[Mendieta]

Sickening collision. Guy in black should have been giving much wider berth to the guy in the red. I feel like guy in black didn't even see guy in red because he was moving very fast and might have been worrying about the crowd that was stopped. Guy in red might have avoided if he'd looked uphill, but he wasn't taking up the whole slope with his turns and the guy in black was coming very fast. Even if he'd looked uphill I'm not sure he could have avoided being hit

It seems like a perfect storm, and perhaps a better approach to "who is the culprit" would be holistically, what went wrong. Reviewing the code:

• Always stay in control, and be able to stop or avoid other people or objects. ( -> Violated by the uphill skier)
• People ahead of you have the right of way. It is your responsibility to avoid them. ( -> Violated by uphill skier)
• You must not stop where you obstruct a trail, or are not visible from above. ( -> Violated by the snowboarders and skiers blocking most of the trail. )
• Whenever starting downhill or merging into a trail, look uphill and yield to others. ( -> Violated by the downhill skier being hit. )
• Always use devices to help prevent runaway equipment.
• Observe all posted signs and warnings. Keep off closed trails and out of closed areas.
• Prior to using any lift, you must have the knowledge and ability to load, ride and unload safely.

I think we all tend to try to "find a culprit", and my understanding is that the code is indeed hierarchical, in that the most important rule is listed first (please correct me if I am wrong). But several people in this video could/should have done better, and any of these doing the right thing might have avoided the whole horrible crash. I hope nobody got seriously injured as a result.

 

[James]

There was already an incident that the patroller was attending. It's quite possible the victim was skiing to avoid them and then got slammed by the guy coming in too hot. Too much speed, not enough skill.

I think one youtube commentator put it best though

Clueless butt-chapeaus like this guy are why I spend almost as much time looking uphill as down. You shouldn't have to look out for clowns like this bombing down, but do it anyway.

Pretty much. The disturbing thing about the comments is the pervasive belief that being “cut off” is the fault of the person downhill. As if coming down fast, one has a right to the trail.

 

[fatbob]

I think we all tend to try to "find a culprit", and my understanding is that the code is indeed hierarchical, in that the most important rule is listed first (please correct me if I am wrong).

I've never seen anything, bar pundits on internet threads, to suggest it is hierarchical.

If it is then there is little needed beyond 1 because the person most out of control or who doesn't avoid the other is to blame absolutely (even if the other deliberately and immediately places themself in their path).

I think the crowding may be due to a preexisting accident that patrol is attending and it doesn't look to me like the victim joins from the other piste.

I will add that the thing that seems to cause most confusion is the idea that in 2 downhill skiers have the absolute right of way but this is immediately contradicted in 4 by circumstances in which they don't.

 

[James]

Assuming it’s hierarchical is way beyond intent of the thing I think.

Pretty much 1-4 lays out behavior on piste.

The guy who got hit was not merging from the side trail nor starting out. Here he is just before getting hit, above the merge.

Had he looked up when going across here, he might have seen the uphill skier in time to avoid.

As to the obstructing a trail- could’ve been better, but injuries happen. As much as I can see, the group was visible from above.

 

[Mendieta]

Yes, @James and @fatbob, that all makes sense, I reviewed the video on more time and I think you are both right. Thanks much!

 

[slow-line-fast]

Pretty much. The disturbing thing about the comments is the pervasive belief that being “cut off” is the fault of the person downhill. As if coming down fast, one has a right to the trail.

Red jacket was making a turn. Black jacket hit him from behind. 100% the fault of black jacket.

It's unsettling how widespread the 'getting cut off' view is. I'm not afraid of racers coming from behind - they know what they are doing, and know what those below them are doing (hint: turning!). They understand that people don't have eyes in the back of their heads. I'm afraid of people who bomb down going fast, paying no attention, and seeming to have no clue.

One of the youtube comments was to the effect that it is hard to predict where people below are going to cut left or right. Another hint: if you are having trouble avoiding people below you that you are overtaking, you are not leaving enough room to pass. Slow down and leave more space.

 

[monkeypunch]

Red jacket was making a turn. Black jacket hit him from behind. 100% the fault of black jacket.

It's unsettling how widespread the 'getting cut off' view is. I'm not afraid of racers coming from behind - they know what they are doing, and know what those below them are doing (hint: turning!). They understand that people don't have eyes in the back of their heads. I'm afraid of people who bomb down going fast, paying no attention, and seeming to have no clue.

One of the youtube comments was to the effect that it is hard to predict where people below are going to cut left or right. Another hint: if you are having trouble avoiding people below you that you are overtaking, you are not leaving enough room to pass. Slow down and leave more space.

If someone slams on the brakes on the interstate and comes to a complete stop for no reason, and gets slammed into from behind, they MAY not be at fault, but they may also be an idiot.

Sometimes you can leave alllll the room in the world and that one erradict idiot cuts across the run right in front of you, we zero regard for anyone else. That has happened to every single person on this forum, and its extremely frustrating. The absolute of "its always the uphill skiers fault" is dumb. IMO, that part of the "code" contributes to the above attitude of not caring about anyone uphill of some skiers.

 

[François Pugh]

Red jacket was making a turn. Black jacket hit him from behind. 100% the fault of black jacket.

It's unsettling how widespread the 'getting cut off' view is. I'm not afraid of racers coming from behind - they know what they are doing, and know what those below them are doing (hint: turning!). They understand that people don't have eyes in the back of their heads. I'm afraid of people who bomb down going fast, paying no attention, and seeming to have no clue.

One of the youtube comments was to the effect that it is hard to predict where people below are going to cut left or right. Another hint: if you are having trouble avoiding people below you that you are overtaking, you are not leaving enough room to pass. Slow down and leave more space.

Absolutely!
If someone "cuts right in front of you", or "suddenly stops", such that you can't avoid him, you were too close to him carrying that much speed to begin with.

The guy coming down was unable to avoid the downhill (ahead) skier.
Looking further into it, he underestimated his ability to avoid the downhill skier, but why?
It could be, as is often assumed, that he is a relatively new skier and doesn't know how hard it is to stop at speed. It could also be that he has been skiing many years and is used to carving high g-turns on his edges, but has little experience at skidded turns (i.e. he has little experience making the typical turns taught to skiers in ski school); skis do not have ABS.

I remember being absolutely shocked at how little influence I had on my direction when not having my edges locked into their self-created grooves, after skiing mostly arc-2-arc for a few decades. I only discovered this, because I was skiing while feeling poorly, and trying to be safe, and not skiing arc-2-arc.

This, imho, can happen to self-taught skeirs, but is unlikely to happen to racers or folks who take lessons; racers, through having to navigate skis around turns too tight for their skis, and lesson takers through lessons, are very familiar with how skis behave when skiing mostly sideways. Self-taught experienced speed-addicted skiers usually reserve sideways skiing for stopping, not turning (don't ask me how I know).

 

[wiread]

100% black jacket, I can't believe it's even a question. There's how many people lined up down there? including a Patroller who's pulling a sled? and a guy going slow in front and oblivious guy flying up on all of it at speed and no control.

 

[Andy Mink]

Done.

If someone gets ticked at me because I am "in their line" I remind then that if I'm in front of them it's MY line.