Snowboarding's design flaws

[Tom K.]

Design Flaw #7: An honest to goodness blind side.

 

[fatbob]

Design Flaw #7: An honest to goodness blind side.

Nah that's a design flaw in the brains of skiers who are incapable of recognising it is there while they try to pass.

 

[WynnDuffy]

Why are you using your dorsal flexors to reduce chatter on your heel side turns? Use the dorsal flexors (along with inclination/angulation) to get up on edge then use your "big muscles" to carve and hold your edge. This is the same as skiers using their ankles/feet to roll into the turn, but once you're there you use your "big muscles" to actually stay there through the turn.

I'm just going to address this point because your response made me realize my original post was way to long. Oh well, live and learn.

When you ski your ankle muscles don't hold the edge. You press your entire leg against the front inside of the cuff of your boot. So the chain is thigh muscles -> boot cuff -> ski edge. A snowboarder might argue that they can pressure their highbacks the same way a skier pressures his inner boot cuff, but that is not true. When you bend your knees, you take pressure off of the high backs. When you straighten your legs, you put more pressure on them. Therein lies the rub. Even smooth groomers have subtle undulations.

Skiers can absorb the undulations in a trail because they can freely bend their knees without releasing their edges. A skier's knee bend is orthagonal to the edge forces, so knee bend doesn't cause a skier's edges to weaken. The problem with snowboarding is that their knees bend in the same direction as they apply force to their edges. Bending your knees gives you *more* toeside edge strength, but less heelside edge strength. Snowboarders are forced to rely on their dorsal flexors to dig their heels in and that just isn't strong enough.

I do agree with the point above that alpine snowboarders are wonderful on corduroy.

 

[Goose]

I think the bottom line here is that snowboarding is not skiing. Nor should it be nor is it suppose to to be. And nor should it be compared to skiing. Its apples and oranges really.

And with due respect, unless that is the purpose of this discussion I dont know what else it could be. I mean imo why should it be compared to skiing when its not skiing? But is something else, something different.

That said I have witnessed (only a select rare few) snowboarders carving the crap out of eastern hardpack semi icy conditions where as even most skiers couldnt hold an edge. I know nothing about it and as much as I dont care for boarding I certainly appreciated what i saw. I will say (from my witnessed experiences) most boarders skid the living crap out of most slopes vs carve them or even partially carve them .

 

[KingGrump]

When you ski your ankle muscles don't hold the edge. You press your entire leg against the front inside of the cuff of your boot.

Not for all skiers.

Skiers can absorb the undulations in a trail because they can freely bend their knees without releasing their edges. A skier's knee bend is orthagonal to the edge forces, so knee bend doesn't cause a skier's edges to weaken.

The hip is also very much involved in shock absorption in uneven terrain. Much depends on terrain, type of turns, intent and application. Oh yeah, skill level too.

 

[Tom K.]

Nah that's a design flaw in the brains of skiers who are incapable of recognising it is there while they try to pass.

Right, like yesterday -- twice -- when I was trying to pass one that was hugging his "frontside" of the catwalk, so that the only way by was on his blindside.

Then he would suddenly do a "hit" on that bank and swerve blindly completely across the catwalk on landing.

These two guys could have been twins, except -- wait for it -- one was wearing a hockey jersey, so I new to keep an extra sharp eye!

 

[Lauren]

Snowboarders are forced to rely on their dorsal flexors to dig their heels in and that just isn't strong enough.

While riding this morning, I thought a lot about this, and what muscles I use. Slow, flat traverses I do tend to use my dorsal flexion, as you describe. But when carving on a trail, it’s all about weight transfer to get onto your heel side edge, then I use my hamstrings and glutes to hold and execute the carve. YMMV.

 

[WynnDuffy]

While riding this morning, I thought a lot about this, and what muscles I use. Slow, flat traverses I do tend to use my dorsal flexion, as you describe. But when carving on a trail, it’s all about weight transfer to get onto your heel side edge, then I use my hamstrings and glutes to hold and execute the carve. YMMV.

Hamstrings and glutes extend the hips. Biomechanically, how does hip extension engage the heelside edge? I did point out in a comment above that *knee* extension will engage the heel side edge by pressing against your high backs (with the problem that bending at the knees to absorb weakens the pressure against the high backs).

 

[Lauren]

Biomechanically, how does hip extension engage the heelside edge?

Not sure...all I know is that’s what I felt while riding.

 

[CascadeConcrete]

I think the bottom line here is that snowboarding is not skiing. Nor should it be nor is it suppose to to be. And nor should it be compared to skiing. Its apples and oranges really.

I'd argue comparisons between them are a pretty sensible. Snowboarding and skiing are not the same, but they have more or less the same function: downhill snowsport. They are basically substitutes for each other. And, while not technically mutually exclusive, in practice they might as well be because the vast majority of people pick one and never so much as try the other. People absolutely do decide between the two, although of course, you can argue over whether those decisions are rational or just gut feeling. I couldn't care less how people I'll never meet want to slide down snow. But it still makes sense to compare the two for the sake of beginners and those considering switching. I know I strongly recommend to friends that are picking up a snowsport to choose skiing for a whole host of reasons.

Bottom line is that they are substitutes for each other, and absolutely should be compared against each other. Every beginner in the last 30 years or so since snowboarding became decently popular has made that comparison.

 

[Flo]

At least when you switch from snowboarding to skiing you know what is an edge and how to use it. I think that snowboarding teach you to ride with an active and aggressive style and when you transfer these skills to skiing you improve much faster. You know how to bend a ski and how carving feels. The downside is that in snowboard you tend to lean back when it gets steep and can result in backseat skiing.

 

[fatbob]

Right, like yesterday -- twice -- when I was trying to pass one that was hugging his "frontside" of the catwalk, so that the only way by was on his blindside.

Then he would suddenly do a "hit" on that bank and swerve blindly completely across the catwalk on landing.

These two guys could have been twins, except -- wait for it -- one was wearing a hockey jersey, so I new to keep an extra sharp eye!

That's just dumbassery under self preservation principles even though they migh have been in the right* had you hit them.

* If I ruled the world of skier's code anyone jumping off side hits puts themselves in breach of rule 4 as they re enter the trail and are fair game for a rollerball mullering if they can't be avoided.

 

[Yo Momma]

In bottomless 5 feet of pow...... I want a board.... It's surfing.... anything less I'll take my skis please! If you haven't boarded in bottomless, it's like speaking Japanese, having never lived in Japan. You'll just never be truly fluent and understand all the nuances.

I sold the board when I moved back east.

 

[Goose]

I'd argue comparisons between them are a pretty sensible. Snowboarding and skiing are not the same, but they have more or less the same function: downhill snowsport. They are basically substitutes for each other. And, while not technically mutually exclusive, in practice they might as well be because the vast majority of people pick one and never so much as try the other. People absolutely do decide between the two, although of course, you can argue over whether those decisions are rational or just gut feeling. I couldn't care less how people I'll never meet want to slide down snow. But it still makes sense to compare the two for the sake of beginners and those considering switching. I know I strongly recommend to friends that are picking up a snowsport to choose skiing for a whole host of reasons.

Bottom line is that they are substitutes for each other, and absolutely should be compared against each other. Every beginner in the last 30 years or so since snowboarding became decently popular has made that comparison.

Respectfully, I guess we'd have to agree to disagree.

I just don't view it the way you mention. Imo it's very much 2 different things and one has nothing to do with the other.

I grew up as a kid (as tons of others) substituting playing perhaps softball or basketball or roller hockey or soccer or touch football on the very same blacktop schoolyard. But none of those imo are comparable to each other because they too are apples and oranges or strawberries, etc...very different things regardless of being played on the exact same surface at the exact same place. .

Imo I can't compare the techniques of skiing vs boarding because they are much too different. . But that's the gist of intent I got most from the opening post was comparing technique. Unless that intent was meant to be something different it certainly is imo two very different things.

 

[Ogg]

Respectfully, I guess we'd have to agree to disagree.

I just don't view it the way you mention. Imo it's very much 2 different things and one has nothing to do with the other.

I grew up as a kid (as tons of others) substituting playing perhaps softball or basketball or roller hockey or soccer or touch football on the very same blacktop schoolyard. But none of those imo are comparable to each other because they too are apples and oranges or strawberries, etc...very different things regardless of being played on the exact same surface at the exact same place. .

Imo I can't compare the techniques of skiing vs boarding because they are much too different. . But that's the gist of intent I got most from the opening post was comparing technique. Unless that intent was meant to be something different it certainly is imo two very different things.

Your examples are faulty because you can't do any of those things together at the same time. With skiing and snowboarding you could go out in a mixed group on the same terrain and play together. You are sliding downhill on snow using your edges to direct you regardless of the tool you choose skis or snowboard.

 

[Goose]

Your examples are faulty because you can't do any of those things together at the same time. With skiing and snowboarding you could go out in a mixed group on the same terrain and play together. You are sliding downhill on snow using your edges to direct you regardless of the tool you choose skis or snowboard.

Yes we can do it while together, but we are still doing two different things technique wise. And that is the piece which cant be compared and is imo what is been brought up via the thread opening post .

 

[Tony Storaro]

Design flaw #6. Lack of independent foot movement.
Feet can’t be moved independently from each other without detaching.

Yeah exactly, finally someone brave enough to talk of the elephant in the room.
The very concept of a snowboard is a flaw. By design.

 

[CascadeConcrete]

I grew up as a kid (as tons of others) substituting playing perhaps softball or basketball or roller hockey or soccer or touch football on the very same blacktop schoolyard. But none of those imo are comparable to each other because they too are apples and oranges or strawberries, etc...very different things regardless of being played on the exact same surface at the exact same place. .

At the schoolyard level, basically no one decides they're only going to play softball, or only basketball, or whatever. But with skiing and snowboarding, almost every single person who has gotten into downhill snowsports in the past 30 years has chosen one or the other. Sure, there are people who do both, but they're very much few and far between. Nearly every beginner makes such comparisons whether implicit or something they very consciously think about. It's an extremely natural comparison to make. So what's wrong with people wanting to discuss it?

 

[mdf]

When I was learning to snowboard, facing sideways was the biggest problem for me. I turned my bindings as far as they would go (so I faced diagonally) and then gradually turned them back to a more normal stance. (I never skateboarded, but I think there would be carry-over from that).

I got up to boarding wide blues reasonably well, but it has been a lot of years since I was on my board and I'd probably have to start over at this point.

 

[WynnDuffy]

Respectfully, I guess we'd have to agree to disagree.

I just don't view it the way you mention. Imo it's very much 2 different things and one has nothing to do with the other.

I grew up as a kid (as tons of others) substituting playing perhaps softball or basketball or roller hockey or soccer or touch football on the very same blacktop schoolyard. But none of those imo are comparable to each other because they too are apples and oranges or strawberries, etc...very different things regardless of being played on the exact same surface at the exact same place.

1. I really don't think you can say in good faith that snowboarding and skiing are as different as roller hockey and soccer. A blacktop is a neutral palette for radically different sports. A ski resort is a heavily specialized palette that is only good for doing one thing - sliding downhill. If a skier and a snowboarder are buddies and they both make medium radius carved turns down a trail and then head into the park and do a 360 with a grab, are you really going to say that what they are doing is as different as roller hockey and soccer?

2. The skills between skiing and snowboarding are highly transferable. If someone can ski blacks with good edge control, they should reach that point on a board in a small fraction of the time. But going from roller hockey to soccer is not particularly transferable. Sure, some skills like watching your opponent's hips instead of the ball may carry over, but you're basically starting from square one.