Special ski passes

[Pete in Idaho]

I know this is probably going to sound like a stupid question but here goes anyway. Why are the lift lines so unbelievably bad at the big resorts in Colorado and Utah? Apparently the special passes (Ikon etc.) are really effecting the crowd, why exactly? Read and heard that this what is happening - can anyone explain what is going on?

Here in northern inland Idaho we never see these types of lines. The picture of Vail last year is almost unbelievable. Why would anyone stand in that line to ski? Does this happen a lot, weekends, holiday and how about midweek?

I just don't understand this mayhem, some discussion would be interesting.



Why

 

[Tricia]

I'm sure you'll get a plethora of responses, but really, I think people are finding skiing more accessible because of these passes. When a day ticket is nearly 200.00/day, it's easy to think you can get 5 days in and have a pass pay for itself.

I used to pay for a day ticket when I traveled to Utah, but now I just pick places that are on my pass that I already have.

Heck, look at our gatherings. We are circulating resorts that are on the IKON pass.

 

[Wilhelmson]

I know this is probably going to sound like a stupid question but here goes anyway. Why are the lift lines so unbelievably bad at the big resorts in Colorado and Utah? Apparently the special passes (Ikon etc.) are really effecting the crowd, why exactly? Read and heard that this what is happening - can anyone explain what is going on?

Here in northern inland Idaho we never see these types of lines. The picture of Vail last year is almost unbelievable. Why would anyone stand in that line to ski? Does this happen a lot, weekends, holiday and how about midweek?

I just don't understand this mayhem, some discussion would be interesting.



Why

The prices make them so much more accessible, while also providing so many great options. Add in a powder day or vacation week and voila they are making money which is their raison d'etre.

Off pass places get busy too. Many times the huge lines can be avoided with good timing, planning and mountain knowledge. Like get lunch at 11, how hard is that? Other times but not frequently, a wind hold or technical issue will just fubar the whole day

 

[dbostedo]

Most of the really crazy lines you see are also at places near population centers that have grown a ton in the last 5-10 years. Denver and SLC areas primarily. They were already busy tourist destinations, and the local populations are a lot bigger now.

 

[Posaune]

If you're making your judgements about lines and crowding based on last season, then wait and see what happens this season. We had huge lines and a crowded parking lot on Wednesdays last season at Baker, which in the past had mellow days with no lines and maybe three rows of cars. It was while everyone was staying home. Schools were off line on Wednesdays around here and the families showed up in hordes. Actually every day was crowded compared to the past. The work from home crowd made a big impact but, hopefully, they'll be back to work on weekdays, and the kids are in school. Another thing that led to bigger lines was restrictions on who could ride with whom. On a busy day requiring singles on quads makes the lines a lot longer. This year there are going to be no such restrictions.

I have hope.

 

[Tricia]

Most of the really crazy lines you see are also at places near population centers that have grown a ton in the last 5-10 years. Denver and SLC areas primarily. They were already busy tourist destinations, and the local populations are a lot bigger now.

This and also many of the complaints are about the lifts that are in the main arteries of the resorts. Most areas that are off the beaten path aren't as crowded. I know when we visited Steamboat last winter on their first powder day of the season, the base area was bonkers. The next lift we hit was (If I remember correctly) Thunderhead. After that we were dispersed and there were really no lines the rest of the day.

I still say, for those who are limited on the kind of terrain they can ski are going to be more likely to experience lift lines.

 

[SSSdave]

This was discussed last winter but serves some purpose to revisit with the new season close. The following show NSAA industry numbers by regions:

https://nsaa.org/webdocs/Media_Public/IndustryStats/Historical_Skier_Days_1979_2021.pdf

What jumps out is last year historically though somewhat higher than average overall was not exceptional at any regions. It is true last winter, there were significant numbers of destination skiers that were on permanent vacation due to the pandemic. In some regions like the Pacific southwest, biggest years reflect those with more winter snow while other regions may vary due to other factors. Another factor in those images of long lines is the way on ordinary non-fresh days how less knowledgeable visitors tend to arrive mid morning, especially on weekends in a huge clog. On fresh powder days, a lot of experienced front range skiers that were on pandemic vacation added into the mix on any fresh days making it worse than it may be in our 2022 season.

My experience at Heavenly all winter midweek was rather ordinary with longest lines once above the base gondola usually short with longest all winter maybe 10 minutes. On days the gondola lines were long, I drove to the Boulder Base that never had lines. In past years when I've skied on weekends, I also just use that base. That noted, there are of course resorts that become crowded at base lifts without any bypasses. For such conditions or on powder days, I learned decades ago to arrive early and get in line.

Another issue is many skiers on fresh days at some resorts tend to squat on favorite lifts with steep terrain while other lifts with less bro worthy terrain in their minds are relatively ignored. Generally regardless of enthusiasm, have a low opinion of how competently a majority of skiers are able to ski fresh snow conditions that shows in the tracks they leave.

 

[Bad Bob]

@Pete in Idaho it might be time to shut up about what have got around here.

Mod edit to correct tag.

 

[Tricia]

@Petthink it might be time to shut up about what have got around here.

That kinda doesn't make sense???

 

[dbostedo]

That kinda doesn't make sense???

I think he was telling Pete to stop telling people about the crowd-free skiing in Idaho...

 

[Sibhusky]

I was wondering who the heck petthink was.

We used to be fairly crowd free. I'm hoping the people last year were all here because they didn't need a reservation and elsewhere they did. If we have another season like last year's, I'm done.

 

[Pete in Idaho]

Thats for sures Bob, have to start complaining about the crowds. Like here:

 

[DanoT]

Second tier resorts offer great value including less crowding and while cheap season passes make major resorts attractive; accommodation, food, and travel are often the more expensive component of a trip to a major resort.

So why are the major resorts disproportionately overcrowded? As a Canadian my observation is that the stereotypical American seeks out the biggest and the best and is willing to pay for it, especially when on vacation. Case in point: Americans flock to Whistler in droves as it is the largest resort in North America, Revelstoke has gotten tons of hype, not because it has earned it but because it has the greatest vertical in North America. Cat and heli skiing is the best way to ski powder and B.C. is the heli and cat skiing capital of the world, and it is almost exclusively American clients, booked years in advance. Last season, with the border closed, many ops shut down, others offered offered half price for Canadians as there were no US clients.

OTOH, I think that some savvy American skiers will soon, in increasing numbers, seek out the more off the beaten track value ski vacation. Anywhere in western Canada not named Whistler is safe for now, but places like Whitefish, Schweitzer, Taos, Silver, and others maybe not so much.

 

[Cheizz]

Interesting stuff. Here in Europe, the Alps at least, lift lines can be terrible in school holidays and at certain times during the day (9 to 10 AM, for instance, when everyone is going up). Avoid holidays as much as possible and certain spots at certain times and you'll be fine. I don't think powder days make it extra busy. Locals tend to avoid crowds instead of add to them.
In the Alps, we don't have those collective ski passes like Ikon or Epic. Sure, some regions have ski passes that allow you to ski in several ski areas (Tirol Snow Card, Aski Amadé, Dolomiti Superski, etc.), but those really just spread people over the areas covered by it rather than attracting new skiers that would otherwise not come and ski there.
Also, the price of a day ticket (€ 55 at a big resort in France, Austria, or Italy and 83 CHF at Zermatt in high season - the highest I could find in Europe) is much less than in the US. So, also the need for Ikon or Epic-like passes, I guess.

 

[dbostedo]

Locals tend to avoid crowds instead of add to them.

Even before Ikon and the spread of Epic passes, the popular resorts were crowded... I'm surprised that people aren't gravitating toward the less crowded or smaller resorts even more. I think people don't prioritize lack of crowds so much, regardless of pass - or rather, the current Ikon and Epic passes reinforce some behavior that was already going on.

Granted... even the busy resorts are not busy all the time. The big lines are very specific pinch points and confluence of events (powder days, lift breakages, holidays, etc.)

Ignoring the Pandemic, even places like Vail or Breckenridge were pretty crowd free mid-week, most weeks by my understanding. I think the most crowded place out west I'd been pre-Pandemic was Copper on a January Saturday. We had a couple of lines of maybe 20 mins, but mostly it was just a minute or two. Even Vail on a Saturday a few years ago I only remember one line that was really long, and it was the end of the day with everyone trying to get down on a Saturday.

So it really depends on when you go I think. While Vail is "crowded", that means maybe 10 or 15 minute lift lines at the popular lifts on the weekend. Where an uncrowded resort, like Aspen, would have less than a minute, and ski-on in some cases. (And of course, as pointed out above, at very busy resorts, some lifts are still lightly used because of the terrain they serve.)

Locally, here, I avoid skiing on Saturdays as much as I can, preferring to go on Friday if I'm only getting one day for the week, purely for avoiding crowds. I have had 15-20 minute lift lines at times in the mid-Atlantic and New England too. And I never ski the holiday/school-break weekends.

(Note, I'm not a local, so only going by my limited experience and things I've heard about... YMMV.)

 

[Tricia]

Interesting stuff. Here in Europe, the Alps at least, lift lines can be terrible in school holidays and at certain times during the day (9 to 10 AM, for instance, when everyone is going up). Avoid holidays as much as possible and certain spots at certain times and you'll be fine. I don't think powder days make it extra busy. Locals tend to avoid crowds instead of add to them.
In the Alps, we don't have those collective ski passes like Ikon or Epic. Sure, some regions have ski passes that allow you to ski in several ski areas (Tirol Snow Card, Aski Amadé, Dolomiti Superski, etc.), but those really just spread people over the areas covered by it rather than attracting new skiers that would otherwise not come and ski there.
Also, the price of a day ticket (€ 55 at a big resort in France, Austria, or Italy and 83 CHF at Zermatt in high season - the highest I could find in Europe) is much less than in the US. So, also the need for Ikon or Epic-like passes, I guess.

I rarely ski on super busy days unless I have friends who can only ski at that time. Mostly because I have the opportunity to ski when its not busy and I ...

1. Don't want to deal with the crowds
2. Would rather let those who can't ski mid week have the slopes to themselves

There are times when I ski weekend days or holidays but its pretty rare.

 

[Slim]

@Pete in Idaho , are you really asking why Utah (around Salt Lake City) and Colorado (near Denver) are busier than Idaho?

Denver Metro area population: 2.96 million
Salt Lake City Metro area population: 1.24 million people
Coeur d’Alene metro area population: 0.12 million people

And I am sure the airports (for out of region travelers) are similar. Pretty much anyone in the world can fly quickly and cheaply to Denver, most can to SLC as well, but Spokane or other airports near Northern ID are a lot harder to get to.

 

[KingGrump]

but places like Whitefish, Schweitzer, Taos, Silver, and others maybe not so much.

I am not worried about Taos. The repeat rate for first time visitors has not been good.

 

[DanoT]

I am not worried about Taos. The repeat rate for first time visitors has not been good

What do you think is the main reason(s) for a poor skier return rate for Taos?

 

[Jim McDonald]

I'd think travel. My one visit to Taos was in 1996. Loved the place, but it was a PITA to get to even after I'd flown 9 hours to Seattle.
And for my brother also, who had to fly Orlando-Denver-Albuquerque, where we met up and then drove two hours to get to Taos town.
That's why it's on my list of places I'd like to revisit after more than 10 years, but realistically I will likely not get there again.
That said, it's a fantastic place to ski and well worth the trip (once).