Special ski passes

[KingGrump]

What do you think is the main reason(s) for a poor skier return rate for Taos?

As you said prior, most vacation skiers want the biggest and baddest resorts. They can brag about it at the water cooler. Even when all they skied were cat tracks that wind around the mountain. Many mountains do a very good job of hiding their steeps and usually they have an easy way around them. No one wants to come back from a vacation feeling like they have gone 15 rounds with Mike Tyson.

Taos, OTOH is a small hill. Much of the steeps are in plain view when riding the lifts. For many not capable of the more difficult terrains, the constant reminder does not sit well with one’s ego. There is literally nowhere for one to escape the views of the steeps and bumps.

The photo above is Kachina peak. 1,100 vertical feet of bumps. Not very steep by Taos standard. No easy way down. They have reconfigured the lift corral to be challenging enough to discourage the random intermediate from boarding the chair. The ski patrol was over worked prior to the reconfiguration. It was apparent during the first season of the Peak chair’s operation that many skiers have no clue what "Expert Only" means.

When the steeps and bumps of the ridge is not visible. Skiers are still constantly reminded of their presence. The photo below is the first stage of Al’s Run. The first run visible from the base. Approximately 1,900 vertical feet of non-stop bumps. The kicker - that is the easiest way down on the lower front with the exception of one groomer.

Yeah, if a causal skier wants to feel good about her/his skiing, Taos is definitely not it.

 

[mdf]

@Pete in Idaho , are you really asking why Utah (around Salt Lake City) and Colorado (near Denver) are busier than Idaho?

I'm sure there's a chicken and egg issue too.... the mega-passes bought/partnered with the resorts that were already popular.

In my experience, the Ikon complaints are overblown with a few high-visibility exceptions. (Early/late season, powder, ...)

There is a lot of clumpiness to crowding. And people remark on the worst cases. For example, last time I was at Jackson Hole there was a "long" line at the Sublette quad -- about 10 minutes. But then I skied a lap and there was no line at all -- skied right on.

 

[Tricia]

View attachment 144348

As you said prior, most vacation skiers want the biggest and baddest resorts. They can brag about it at the water cooler. Even when all they skied were cat tracks that wind around the mountain. Many mountains do a very good job of hiding their steeps and usually they have an easy way around them. No one wants to come back from a vacation feeling like they have gone 15 rounds with Mike Tyson.

Taos, OTOH is a small hill. Much of the steeps are in plain view when riding the lifts. For many not capable of the more difficult terrains, the constant reminder does not sit well with one’s ego. There is literally nowhere for one to escape the views of the steeps and bumps.

The photo above is Kachina peak. 1,100 vertical feet of bumps. Not very steep by Taos standard. No easy way down. They have reconfigured the lift corral to be challenging enough to discourage the random intermediate from boarding the chair. The ski patrol was over worked prior to the reconfiguration. It was apparent during the first season of the Peak chair’s operation that many skiers have no clue what "Expert Only" means.

When the steeps and bumps of the ridge is not visible. Skiers are still constantly reminded of their presence. The photo below is the first stage of Al’s Run. The first run visible from the base. Approximately 1,900 vertical feet of non-stop bumps. The kicker - that is the easiest way down on the lower front with the exception of one groomer.

Yeah, if a causal skier wants to feel good about her/his skiing, Taos is definitely not it.

View attachment 144349

I get the feeling that groups of skiers, whether its a family or group of friends, there are usually a variety of abilities and sometimes a mountain that is known for gnarly terrain may not suit a group like that.

 

[mdf]

I'd think travel. My one visit to Taos was in 1996. Loved the place, but it was a PITA to get to ...

I love Taos and will return this coming season. But I am not looking forward to getting there.

 

[DanoT]

Back in the old days at Tod Mtn the most popular souvenir was a t-shirt that declared: "I skied the Challenger" (steepest run on the mountain). I am pretty sure there were more t-shirts sold than ski tracks on the run.

 

[KingGrump]

Back in the old days at Tod Mtn the most popular souvenir was a t-shirt that declared: "I skied the Challenger" (steepest run on the mountain). I am pretty sure there were more t-shirts sold than ski tracks on the run.

Mid 80's, I bought a hot pink tee shirt at A-Basin that proudly proclaimed "I skied Pallavicini." Then I went to Taos in 1989...

 

[CascadeConcrete]

As @SSSdave was saying, there really doesn't seem to be much, if any, more skiers total. I think what we're seeing is more of a redistribution of where and when people ski. I have no numbers, nor any special knowledge but my guess is that the following are some of the culprits (and probably more factors I haven't thought of too).

1. The Epic and Ikon passes have bundled together large numbers of resorts, making it cheaper and more convenient to go to other resorts within the same group. They have built out feeder resort networks of smaller local hills, to try to drive destination skier money to their major resorts. And I think it has worked. These passes have moved skier days from smaller, unaffiliated hills to ones within the major networks.

2. There's been a general population redistribution, leading to large increases in skiers in a few large western cities. Tons of people have moved to Seattle, Denver, SLC, and others in the last 10 years. Some of these people either were already skiers, or picked up the sport. This leads to stressed infrastructure (ski resorts, roads to ski resorts, even backcountry trails) in these areas due to the rapid influx of more skiers. And it probably also takes skiers away from the resorts near wherever these people moved from.

3. There's been ever increasing focus on powder skiing. This has both been driven by equipment improvements that make it easier for the masses. And by social media, which can make it seem like everybody else is only ever skiing the raddest lines and deepest pow (who posts videos skiing down an icy groomer?). So that drives people both to seek out the type of resorts that can provide the sort of skiing they see in their Instagram feed (even if they're not actually capable of doing that sort of skiing), and leads to people trying to time their ski days to hit pow dumps. Some take it so far that they won't even come up to the hill unless it snowed overnight.

4. The pandemic, and specifically the remote work freedom it gave many people, has only exacerbated the above. Of course some people were able to take off work and spend a month in a ski town or whatever. But far more had the increased flexibility to take a powder morning off and then work from the lodge or drive home and work.

These factors, and probably more, concentrate tons of skiers at the same resorts on the same days. And you get those pics of obscene lines.

 

[DanoT]

Some great points @CascadeConcrete. I hadn't considered the impact of population growth but it is for sure a contributor to crowds at major resorts that are fairly close to major cities or even towns like Bend and Bozeman and others I am sure, that have experienced rapid growth.

 

[slowrider]

Some great points @CascadeConcrete. I hadn't considered the impact of population growth but it is for sure a contributor to crowds at major resorts that are fairly close to major cities or even towns like Bend and Bozeman and others I am sure, that have experienced rapid growth.

The fastest growing city in Oregon is the Bend metro area. Its population grew by 27.9% from 2010 to 2020 to 201,769 residents.

 

[Seldomski]

Passes are a sunk cost. People tolerate the lines because it's "free" to ski (after buying the pass). So before you might not ski a day with crazy lines because you wanted to save some $$ and aggravation and do something else fun that day. With the pass, you already paid to be on the mountain, so you might as well go use it. With a pass, we are also more likely to tack on more trips per season because 'it's free' (it's not, but I like to ski so I'm good with it ).

Access is also a big sticking point. Denver and SLC areas are very easy to get to because of their major airports. It looks like this is starting to change as airlines add new routes to some of the less accessible areas, so expect your hidden jewels/areas to get packed and jammed with hotels/etc soon. The demand is increasing, but there's only so much capacity to shove people through Denver and into I-70. So, time to add more destinations.

Taos is a weird case. It is the closest place with the best terrain (as the crow flies) to me, but it's faster door to door to go to Denver or SLC. The air connections to ABQ are awful. If we're going to spend a few more hours to go somewhere, we pick Whistler. It's about 10 hrs to fly/drive to Taos via ABQ. 12 hrs if we just drive it...

Texas population growth is also likely part of the reason why Denver/SLC have gotten so crowded. Texas population has gone from 20 -> 25 -> 30 million in the past 20 years (2000, 2010, 2020 respectively). Not everyone in Texas skis, but there are no real options to ski in Texas. Quickest access are the aforementioned airports - most of this growth has been in cities that are 10+ hrs drive to skiing in New Mexico. So resorts that are more accessible to Texans (and specifically routes from Houston, Dallas airports) are going to see uneven crowding.

The Top States Delivering Skiers May Not Be What You Think - Snowsports Industries America

Locals create the identity of a ski town: it’s imprint, ambiance, character. In a symbiotic relationship, the season’s visitors add to a town and resort’s flavor and, ultimately, keep the lifts running at the local ski hill. Understanding the origin of visiting skiers sheds light on the...

snowsports.org

 

[SSSdave]

From @Seldomski link:

percent of the nation’s alpine skiers
-----------------------------
Colorado 5.2 percent
New York 10.3 percent
California 15.5 percent
Texas 6.2 percent
Florida 5.5 percent

 

[Slide of Hans]

What do you think is the main reason(s) for a poor skier return rate for Taos?

Also the lack of a nearby mountain on the same megapass comes into play. In CO and UT one can visit several resorts on the same trip. As an east coaster I've been to Taos
3 different trips and it is a favorite due to relative lack of crowds. Next on the visit list is Idaho actually! I'm done with the big resort experience.

 

[dbostedo]

I love Taos and will return this coming season. But I am not looking forward to getting there.

I am! Flying into Santa Fe, and will have a nice 2 hour drive (weather permitting). I'm staying in the same house as last time... it's going to feel like coming home.

 

[CascadeConcrete]

From @Seldomski link:

percent of the nation’s alpine skiers
-----------------------------
Colorado 5.2 percent
New York 10.3 percent
California 15.5 percent
Texas 6.2 percent
Florida 5.5 percent

Is it particularly surprising that the top 4 most populous states also are in the top 5 for most skiers, along with the country's most famous ski state? This is borderline "heat map that is basically just a population map." I don't know if this board is really the xkcd demographic but here.

Doesn't say anything about how much these people ski. A skier could be anyone from 100+ day per year ski bum who lives in a ski town to someone in FL who took a trip once five years ago. They'll count for the same number of skiers, but the former adds as much load on ski resorts as hundreds of the latter. And this statistic probably should be per capita too.

 

[KingGrump]

I am! Flying into Santa Fe, and will have a nice 2 hour drive (weather permitting). I'm staying in the same house as last time... it's going to feel like coming home.

Taos Air to SKX.

 

[dbostedo]

Taos Air to SKX.

I'd have to fly to Austin to get the flight to Taos... getting flights where the timing works is tough and might require night in Austin, and it's more expensive. But it would be cool to do some time if the flight schedules worked, especially if staying in the village and not renting a car.

(Also... under the IATA naming, which is what Kayak uses, Taos is "TSM"... even though the FAA code is "SKX". Odd - usually they're the same. I haven't seen that before. Another little Taos oddity. )

 

[Mister Tea]

The short answer is that a lot of people like crowds. I don't understand the phenomenon, but there are a significant number of people who just want to be where everyone else is. For people with that world view, winding up in a quiet uncrowded restaurant or ski area is a sign of failure - if I'm the only one here it must not be any good. When that same person goes to Vail and waits in 90 minute lift lines the reaction is "wow, I've arrived. Now I'm with all the cool people" Do not underestimate this phenomena - destination ski resorts definitely do not.

I honestly can't explain why anyone would go to Vail more than once better than that.

 

[DanoT]

I honestly can't explain why anyone would go to Vail more than once better than that.

I say the same thing about Whistler (and that buying it was a good fit for Vail Resorts). While WB is great if you live a couple hours away or less in Vancouver but for out of towners, why line up (often in the rain) and overpay for everything? And in my books great partying and shopping doesn't overcome wet snow. But apparently I am in the minority as WB averages 2.2 M skier visits/year.

 

[dbostedo]

for out of towners, why line up (often in the rain) and overpay for everything?

Because they are hoping for a week like we had for the Gathering? Mostly no crowds, new snow most days even if only a couple of inches, not a lick of rain, and cold all the way down to the village.

 

[DanoT]

Because they are hoping for a week like we had for the Gathering? Mostly no crowds, new snow most days even if only a couple of inches, not a lick of rain, and cold all the way down to the village.

But still some crowds. One morning I was out walking my dog at 7am and there was a huge crowd in front of the Whistler Gondola, 2 hours before it was due to open. So I aked what was going on and it turned out these were people attending the Early Trax Breakfast. The WB staff was just about to cap the line at 600 skiers, 1 hour before the start of the event. I can only wonder at what time the folks at the front of the line arrived.