Stöckli Laser WRT ST vs SC?

Prov1kanobi

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Hey RH,.
I just picked up the WRT and had it mounted with Marker piston plates and 16 Din xcell race. I've tried FIS SL skis in the past and I just didn't like the small size ski. So I tried the predecessor to the WRT, the VRT. All three with Marker piston plate setups. I found the VRT unpredictable on uneven surfaces. A little bouncy even. I've found the 2020 WRT to be a great improvement on the VRT and while it has tons of edge grip and energy I see it as a hard snow master with versatility you don't expect. There was a mix of soft snow, piles, and ice last time I had them out. I had total confidence that they would hook up. I was catching air off of small varietions on the groom, grabbing Ice on the landing and immediately ripping into another tight carve. The down side is all my other ski's suck now! My MX 84s now feel like I'm driving a bus. Mine are a 172 ST.
 

Tony Storaro

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Radius between 15-18m and a width underfoot of no more than 75mm at the very most - 70mm is ideal.

Stiff but not too stiff - more a piste performance ski than a race ski so it's easy enough to bend it into a variety of shapes and for moguls.

I do want a ski that has an amazing edge hold and inspires confidence rather than fear on rock hard pistes.

That sounds like a description of Laser GS in 175.
 
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Rebound Hound

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I did try the 180 GS - loved the way they pull you into a turn. That was the best thing about them - the way they hook up. They felt very fast and exciting but too unmanageable for me. The length made them very grippy and stable but I was always fighting to get out of the back seat. Very tiring. I'd quite like a ski with a radius that meant I could fully carve black slopes without things getting very scary and having to brush the turn. 40-45mph is plenty for me. I imagine 5cm less could make a fair amount of difference though? I'm wondering if I found the GS hard to control maybe the WRT would be worse as I guess they are stiffer but then again they have a smaller radius and are shorter.
 
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Tony Storaro

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It looks to me the WRT will be even more unmanageable and less user friendly than the GS. I already tried the GS this season and found them fantastic, although indeed more demanding than the AX.
At 183 cm/83 kg 180 cm works well for me but as you said, they are kinda tiring, I only ski them for 2 hours in the morning when the conditions are perfect and then slip into the AX for the rest of the day.
Perhaps you should try the 175, see if they feel differently. Can't say how will they be in carving black runs, I can only carve reds at this point in time, on blacks I hold for dear life and pray.:ogbiggrin::ogbiggrin:
 

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I'm quite happy with my Blizzard Brahma 82 for piste, off piste and powder as long as it's not hardpack / ice. I actually bought it instead of the SC as i wanted something better for off piste but also decent on the piste. Thanks for the binding review - seems like SRT bindings on it could be quite a nice combo to make sure they aren't too full on race.

For my course a true SL isn't an option - I could get away with a 14m 170+ slalom ski though. The spec of ski they want me to buy is:

Radius between 15-18m and a width underfoot of no more than 75mm at the very most - 70mm is ideal.

Stiff but not too stiff - more a piste performance ski than a race ski so it's easy enough to bend it into a variety of shapes and for moguls.

For example he recommends the head e-race for a very high end level 3 and more for a level 4 course - advises to go for the e-speed or e-magnum instead. He recommends the Speed Course Master GS Konnect 169 (I normally ski 175-180) or the Speed Omeglass SL Konnekt (173cm) rather than the R22 race plate versions since they are a bit softer and more forgiving (he skis the R22 version himself).

I do want a ski that has an amazing edge hold and inspires confidence rather than fear on rock hard pistes.
After testing the WRT ST last season I went out and bought what I consider the "poor man's" alternative ski. That's the Fischer RC4 The Curv CB. I had it out today and I can confirm that it has the performance without the smoothness/refinement you'll find in Stöckli. However, if you want a ski with AMAZING (dare I say RIDICULOUS) levels of edge hold that has absolutely NO FEAR of rock hard pistes, well that's the The Curv CB (CB = Curv Booster). This ski is so grippy you better turn up your "precision level" to max or it will take you for a ride.
 
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Rebound Hound

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After testing the WRT ST last season I went out and bought what I consider the "poor man's" alternative ski. That's the Fischer RC4 The Curv CB. I had it out today and I can confirm that it has the performance without the smoothness/refinement you'll find in Stöckli. However, if you want a ski with AMAZING (dare I say RIDICULOUS) levels of edge hold that has absolutely NO FEAR of rock hard pistes, well that's the The Curv CB (CB = Curv Booster). This ski is so grippy you better turn up your "precision level" to max or it will take you for a ride.
Sounds good. Is it 72 underfoot in the 171cm 15.5m radius? I think they might have renamed it the RC4 THE CURV M/O but not sure? I figured the closest ski was probably the Atomic X9S since it has the 65.5mm underfoot. It's 15.4m in the 175cm and 14.8m in the 169.
 

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The WRT ST is, as some have already mentioned, a quite stiff, unforgiving machine. Super grip, power, and rebound, but no finesse whatsoever. The Fischer The Curv CB (the 2021 version is indeed called the Curv M/O, a different plate, slightly smoother than the Curv Booster plate) is slightly more forgiving and smooth. But it has a larger radius. Better suited for mid-sized and longer turns IMO.
The Atomic Redster X9 S is great in medium and shorter turns. Very grippy too. Great torsional stiffness and quite dominant tips. The Laser SC is by far the softest and most friendly of these skis. Easy to handle, also on low speeds. But by no means a push-over. You can rip on them. And in softer snow, bumps etc. these are much friendlier. If you want a ski that you can literally ski with your eyes closed, take the Laser SC. If you want pure performance, take your pick, depending on turn shape preference.
 

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Sounds good. Is it 72 underfoot in the 171cm 15.5m radius? I think they might have renamed it the RC4 THE CURV M/O but not sure? I figured the closest ski was probably the Atomic X9S since it has the 65.5mm underfoot. It's 15.4m in the 175cm and 14.8m in the 169.
Correct on all counts. I don't think we get the X9 S on this side of the pond, so I've never been on it and cannot comment. Although the Fischer is a bit wider, it's the sidecut that puts it into the same realm as the WRT ST.. That's what's unique about both skis. That's not the case with the X9 S even though they "claim" a multi-radius sidecut (it doesn't have the same tip cut as the WRT ST).
 
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Rebound Hound

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Correct on all counts. I don't think we get the X9 S on this side of the pond, so I've never been on it and cannot comment. Although the Fischer is a bit wider, it's the sidecut that puts it into the same realm as the WRT ST.. That's what's unique about both skis. That's not the case with the X9 S even though they "claim" a multi-radius sidecut (it doesn't have the same tip cut as the WRT ST).
So you think the X9S is more mono-radius? I does have a vary narrow tip - identical to the more GS style G9 I think.
 
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Another contender might be the new Fischer RC4 Worldcup CT. Great ski. Massive grip and power, yet not as punishing as the Stöckli WRT ST.
Sounds great - I don't know if I could bare to ski a ski with a hole in the tip though. I'm not a fan of the windows and bottle openers they put on their skis. I guess if I went with the M/O I could downsize and get the 171cm to put it in a similar radius and length to the WRT.
 

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As long as you're not skiing 3D snow, the hole in the tip is no problem at all. It would be a pity to discard the Fischer CT just because of the hole in the tip.
 

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So you think the X9S is more mono-radius? I does have a vary narrow tip - identical to the more GS style G9 I think.
Yes, on paper the sidecut of the X9 S is quite similar to most GS type offerings. However, we always note that the published sidecut alone does not tell the whole story for any ski. So you have to take it with that consideration. However, I have rarely seen any ski with a low amount of tip cut suddenly show a strong initial pull across the slope at turn initiation. You just can't escape the physics. The one exception that comes to mind though is the Laser AX. That's a ski that surprised me with its ability to tighten a cleanly arced turn seemingly at will. I think you really need to demo the X9 S to see if its the ski you think it is.

I think you've already noticed how Fischer skis change their dimensions and sidecut across the different lengths in the model line. It's almost like each length is really it's own ski. So the 171cm The Curv CB skis differently than the other lengths. I have the 171cm and it felt the closest in performance to the WRT ST to me (even though it is wider). The Fischer is nowhere near as damp, but the torsional stiffness and overall flex pattern are similar.
 
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Rebound Hound

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I really like a strong pull into the turn like I got from the Stöckli GS. I guess that's why they have massive tips! I imagine they're also good for deflecting variable snow. Together with amazing edge grip it's just like being pulled onto rails. I like that! Hopefully going to demo the WRT ST on monday and the SC on tuesday. They don't have the GS in stock but I think they have it for demo. I've skied the X9S quite a lot in the 181 which I felt was a little long on steeps. Actually I felt like the the X9S the radius felt smaller than it is because it's so easy to get on edge at that width. It's also quite horrible in any kind of snow that isn't flat and hard. The narrow tips certainly don't deflect variable snow as well. I couldn't think of a worse ski to take off piste which I will be forced to do at some point on whatever ski I buy. I didn't really get that same pulling you into the turn feeling on the X9S like I did with the Stöckli GS. The WRT could be totally wrong for me but i'm dying to try them anyway after heading so many good things.
 

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I really like a strong pull into the turn like I got from the Stöckli GS. I guess that's why they have massive tips! I imagine they're also good for deflecting variable snow. Together with amazing edge grip it's just like being pulled onto rails. I like that! Hopefully going to demo the WRT ST on monday and the SC on tuesday. They don't have the GS in stock but I think they have it for demo. I've skied the X9S quite a lot in the 181 which I felt was a little long on steeps. Actually I felt like the the X9S the radius felt smaller than it is because it's so easy to get on edge at that width. It's also quite horrible in any kind of snow that isn't flat and hard. The narrow tips certainly don't deflect variable snow as well. I couldn't think of a worse ski to take off piste which I will be forced to do at some point on whatever ski I buy. I didn't really get that same pulling you into the turn feeling on the X9S like I did with the Stöckli GS. The WRT could be totally wrong for me but i'm dying to try them anyway after heading so many good things.
The non-FIS version of the Stöckli GS has a 50mm tip cut (difference from the tip width to the waist width). That's at least 10mm to 15mm more than FIS level GS skis and provides the Laser GS with that stronger turn initiation pull. 50mm is right up there with many SL skis. The WRT ST has 52mm so it has just a bit more tip cut; putting the front half of that ski firmly in the SL region while the back half is more GS-like in sidecut (34mm tail cut, whereas the Laser GS is 29mm).

Based on your comments about using this ski on non-flat and softer snow, the longer Fischer The Curv M/O (which has a 74mm waist) could have some potential. Or you could go even wider with The Curv GT which is 80mm in the longer lengths, but has the same performance (flex and torsional rigidity) as The Curv M/O; it's just a wider version. I skied the GT in up to 4" of fresh snow last weekend which quickly turned into cut-up and got cruddy as the day went on. The GT was more than happy to just plow through it all.
 
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DocGKR

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Interestingly, I have both the Stöckli 172cm WRT and the 177cm SC, as well as the 185cm Laser GS, along with some 165cm FIS SL’s and 183-188cm 21-30m radius Masters/FIS GS skis.

Over the Holidays I had some spare time, so I tested the above skis back to back at Squaw--free skiing on west coast “hard surface” groomers (probably equivalent to East Coast powder), a variety of bumps, a few inches of fresh, as well as some cut-up mank. Keep in mind I am a 6 ft, 210lbs old guy who grew up racing straight skis and has a more "directional" style.

A lot of my thoughts are in concordance with what has been said earlier in this thread, but some will differ.

Each of the Stöckli’s in question—WRT, SC, GS are among my favorite recreational carving skis, although if I could only have one of them, it would probably be the SC. I find each of these Stöckli’s to offer easy turn initiation over a wide range of speeds, great edge grip on almost all surfaces, good rebound energy, larger than average sweet spots, and a greater degree of forgiveness than many other similar caliber skis.

In my experience, one simple observation has been that folks who enjoy a FIS SL will like the WRT, while those who don’t appreciate a FIS SL are more comfortable with the SC.

I have previously written about my experiences with the SC, but to recap, after moving the bindings forward 1.5cm, the SC turn shape can be varied from nearly SL tight to almost GS wide on surfaces ranging from icy hard morning groomers to soft afternoon slush. The SC is quite fun in both firm and soft moguls. It can also handle a few inches of fresh snow without issues. Turn initiation on the SC is as easy and intuitive as on my 177cm Head SuperShape Rally, but the SC is smoother and has a much higher speed limit than the Rally. In addition, the SC has a very large “sweet spot” and is equally forgiving as the less capable Rally. The Head 177cm SuperShape Speed is closer in top end performance to the SC, but the SS Speed is not as refined or smooth. On my feet, the SC offers a wider performance range than other sport carvers like the Atomic Redster, Nordica Spitfire, Völkl Deacon and others of that ilk. The SC is not quite as precise, scalpel-like, or powerful as the Head e/i.Race or Stöckli WRT for that matter, but the SC is much more fun and adaptable to a wider variety of conditions and terrain. In many ways the SC offers similar versatility and capability as my 181cm Rossi Hero Elite Plus Ti, although the Rossi has a bit more energy, while the SC is more elegant (maybee ZR1 vs. 911). The on-piste breadth and ease offered by the SC is surprising—I suspect both experts and strong intermediates will find the SC a joy carving up groomers, as well as zipping bumps, and roaming all over the mountain on-piste. If you can handle a Head Rally or Liberty V-series, you can manage an SC.

The 172cm WRT is somewhat similar to the 170-175cm Head e/i.Race, particularly in turn shape, although the WRT feels even closer in energy, edge grip, and quickness to my 165cm Rossi FIS SL. When I am on my game, I actually like my FIS SL in the bumps and unsurprisingly the WRT also works well for me in moguls. Like a FIS SL, the WRT is definitely quicker, offers more precision, and demonstrates a bit higher speed limit than the SC. However, the SC is palpably more versatile, has a greater tolerance of errors in technique, and handles a broader breadth of on-piste terrain all over the resort. Note that while the WRT is quite stable arcing turns at high velocities, it can also be whipped around at slower speeds without much effort. FWIW, after experimenting back and forth, I ended up with the WRT's mounted on the line. In short, the WRT is very much like a FIS SL, but with a bit wider turn radius and a touch gentler manners. The WRT's are a blast to cruise around on! Now to burst a few bubbles: At no time has the 172cm WRT ever felt as smooth and stable in longer turns as a 20-30m Masters or FIS GS ski. For that matter, even pseudo-GS sport carvers like the 185cm Stöckli Laser GS or 180cm Head Rebel i.Speed offer better long turn capability than the 172cm WRT. For me, the 172cm WRT definitely feels more like a slightly larger radius FIS SL and not at all like a GS ski--be it FIS, Masters, or Sport.

As recently noted in another thread about my 185cm Stöckli Laser GS; after moving the bindings forward 2cm, I have fallen in love with them for medium and long turn sport carving. They have easy turn initiation at all speeds, feel silky smooth, are stable and grippy on hard surfaces, but can also bust through loose crud. The Laser GS obviously offers a very high speed limit, but they are also surprisingly easy to ski and turn when going slower. Unexpectedly, the Laser GS was able handle about 12" of fresh snow and were also reasonably well behaved in moguls--hmmm, almost an all mountain ski. I like the 185cm Laser GS so much that they have replaced my 182cm AX's, much like I prefer my 177cm SC to the 175cm AX.

I find the Laser GS to be a great complement to my SC's.
 
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Noodler

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Interestingly, I have both the Stöckli 172cm WRT and the 177cm SC, as well as the 185cm Laser GS, along with some 165cm FIS SL’s and 183-188cm 21-30m radius Masters/FIS GS skis.

Over the Holidays I had some spare time, so I tested the above skis back to back at Squaw--free skiing on west coast “hard surface” groomers (probably equivalent to East Coast powder), a variety of bumps, a few inches of fresh, as well as some cut-up mank. Keep in mind I am a 6 ft, 210lbs old guy who grew up racing straight skis and has a more "directional" style.

A lot of my thoughts are in concordance with what has been said earlier in this thread, but some will differ.

Each of the Stöckli’s in question—WRT, SC, GS are among my favorite recreational carving skis, although if I could only have one of them, it would probably be the SC. I find each of these Stöckli’s to offer easy turn initiation over a wide range of speeds, great edge grip on almost all surfaces, good rebound energy, larger than average sweet spots, and a greater degree of forgiveness than many other similar caliber skis.

In my experience, one simple observation has been that folks who enjoy a FIS SL will like the WRT, while those who don’t appreciate a FIS SL are more comfortable with the SC.

I have previously written about my experiences with the SC, but to recap, after moving the bindings forward 1.5cm, the SC turn shape can be varied from nearly SL tight to almost GS wide on surfaces ranging from icy hard morning groomers to soft afternoon slush. The SC is quite fun in both firm and soft moguls. It can also handle a few inches of fresh snow without issues. Turn initiation on the SC is as easy and intuitive as on my 177cm Head SuperShape Rally, but the SC is smoother and has a much higher speed limit than the Rally. In addition, the SC has a very large “sweet spot” and is equally forgiving as the less capable Rally. The Head 177cm SuperShape Speed is closer in top end performance to the SC, but the SS Speed is not as refined or smooth. On my feet, the SC offers a wider performance range than other sport carvers like the Atomic Redster, Nordica Spitfire, Völkl Deacon and others of that ilk. The SC is not quite as precise, scalpel-like, or powerful as the Head e/i.Race or Stöckli WRT for that matter, but the SC is much more fun and adaptable to a wider variety of conditions and terrain. In many ways the SC offers similar versatility and capability as my 181cm Rossi Hero Elite Plus Ti, although the Rossi has a bit more energy, while the SC is more elegant (maybee ZR1 vs. 911). The on-piste breadth and ease offered by the SC is surprising—I suspect both experts and strong intermediates will find the SC a joy carving up groomers, as well as zipping bumps, and roaming all over the mountain on-piste. If you can handle a Head Rally or Liberty V-series, you can manage an SC.

The 172cm WRT is somewhat similar to the 170-175cm Head e/i.Race, particularly in turn shape, although the WRT feels even closer in energy, edge grip, and quickness to my 165cm Rossi FIS SL. When I am on my game, I actually like my FIS SL in the bumps and unsurprisingly the WRT also works well for me in moguls. Like a FIS SL, the WRT is definitely quicker, offers more precision, and demonstrates a bit higher speed limit than the SC. However, the SC is palpably more versatile, has a greater tolerance of errors in technique, and handles a broader breadth of on-piste terrain all over the resort. Note that while the WRT is quite stable arcing turns at high velocities, it can also be whipped around at slower speeds without much effort. FWIW, after experimenting back and forth, I ended up with the WRT's mounted on the line. In short, the WRT is very much like a FIS SL, but with a bit wider turn radius and a touch gentler manners. The WRT's are a blast to cruise around on! Now to burst a few bubbles: At no time has the 172cm WRT ever felt as smooth and stable in longer turns as a 20-30m Masters or FIS GS ski. For that matter, even pseudo-GS sport carvers like the 185cm Stöckli Laser GS or 180cm Head Rebel i.Speed offer better long turn capability than the 172cm WRT. For me, the 172cm WRT definitely feels more like a slightly larger radius FIS SL and not at all like a GS ski--be it FIS, Masters, or Sport.

As recently noted in another thread about my 185cm Stöckli Laser GS; after moving the bindings forward 2cm, I have fallen in love with them for medium and long turn sport carving. They have easy turn initiation at all speeds, feel silky smooth, are stable and grippy on hard surfaces, but can also bust through loose crud. The Laser GS obviously offers a very high speed limit, but they are also surprisingly easy to ski and turn when going slower. Unexpectedly, the Laser GS was able handle about 12" of fresh snow and were also reasonably well behaved in moguls--hmmm, almost an all mountain ski. I like the 185cm Laser GS so much that they have replaced my 182cm AX's, much like I prefer my 177cm SC to the 175cm AX.

I find the Laser GS to be a great complement to my SC's.
Not sure what "bubbles you're bursting", but I don't recall anywhere in this thread was anyone touting the long turn performance of the WRT ST as being better than the likes of masters GS skis. I think your post recapped a lot of what has already been said, but thanks for the further thoughts on how the skis compare.

I have the suspicion that you could probably use some fore/aft alignment work. If you feel like running the check I posted here in this other thread, I'd be interested in what you find. If you feel all the pressure on the balls of your feet when standing straight up on your skis, you're probably pitched to far forward.
 

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The "bubbles bursting" is primarily directed at many of the online reviews I read and watched, which frequently mentioned how the WRT offers the characteristics of both an SL and a GS ski. Obviously the more discerning audience here at SkiTalk would not be duped by such an inaccurate statement....
 
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Rebound Hound

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Thanks for that - really helpful post. Seems like you've tried or own a lot of the skis i'm interested in. I've never tried a FIS SL but I did try the Stöckli SL and found it easy to control but a bit of a bore. I really like short turns but it felt like a one trick pony which is why I tend to sway towards the 15-16m radius.

I was recommended the Dynastar Omeglass Course Master in the 173cm 14m radius length. I suppose that might be comparable to your Rossi FIS slalom in some ways - a bit less power and a bit more length and radius. It was interesting to hear about the Head I-race and I-speed in comparison to the Stöckli's as they are ones recommended for what I'm doing.

When you say the SC gives great grip on almost all surfaces that kind of concerns me. It's not pretty out there where I am at the moment. Almost every slope feels like sheet ice. I'm losing a lot of confidence skiing on my Blizzard Brahma 82s in these conditions especially when it gets steep. Most important is that I can trust them to grip onto anything and not let go. I imagine that would either be the WRT or the Head E-race. The E-race I have been told is really more suitable for a level 4 than a level 3 due to it's stiffness and race plate. Is it really that demanding, stiff and unforgiving? Is the e-speed vastly easier? The E-race would seem to be a good option if i wanted something like the WRT on the cheap. I liked the length of the G9 but it really lacked versatility, was heavy and felt like it wasn't all that willing to turn. It also took lot of force and pitch to generate rebound. It was probably a bit too stiff an not progressive enough for my liking. Perhaps the e-race is the same but just with a easier radius?

I did really appreciate the ease of use of the SC and that they felt like they would perform well in a variety of conditions and be a versatile ski. Even though they are not that stiff they seemed to give me a really nice rebound in short turns which I enjoyed. It does seem like a great all around piste ski that would be perfect for my training which involves dynamic long and short turns, moguls and some off piste. It's just a question of how it performs in really hard icy conditions that's my main concern. Scalpel describes what I need when conditions are like they are.

You must be pretty damn good if you can handle the 185cm Stöckli GS as I felt the 180cm was too much ski for me but I would be curious to try it in the 175cm. I do tend to find that GS skis have to be really forced into short turns and brushed when I'd rather be carving them more smoothly.

Here's the guide i've been looking at: https://www.elementconcept.com/isia-training-ski-advice-2020-2021/
 
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DocGKR

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For me, the SC has much better grip on hard snow and ice than the Brahma 82's. Make sure you have a good 0.5/3 or 1/3 tune.

The Head Rebel e/i.Race are great skis which I enjoy, however I find the WRT to be a bit easier to ski, a bit more forgiving, and a touch smoother--but is that worth twice the cost?

Head nomenclature can be confusing; keep in mind that the Head Rebel e.Speed is more a pseudo GS/Beer League ski like a Laser GS, while the similarly named Head SuperShape e.Speed is more of a easy going, versatile sport carver like the SC.

While I like and own both, I find the Laser GS to be easier to use, offers greater versatility, is more forgiving, and is smoother than the Head Rebel e/i.Speed--again whether that is worth nearly double the cost is another story. Both the 18-19m radius Laser GS and the Rebel e/i.Speed are suitable for cruising on resort slopes and neither of them require the strength and skill necessary to effectively use a 20-30m Masters or FIS GS ski. However based on your comments, neither the Laser GS nor the Head Rebel e/i.Speed is likely what you are looking for.

Bottom line for what you state you need: If you want a versatile, forgiving, smooth and highly capable sport carver which works well on-piste all over the resort in a variety of conditions including ice, get an SC or Head SuperShape e/i.Speed (the Head SuperShape Magnum would also likely work, but I have no experience with them). If you want a more precise, but also more demanding ski that is somewhat less versatile, but offers a higher speed limit then go with the WRT or Head e/i.Race.
 
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