Stöckli Laser WRT ST vs SC?

Noodler

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For me, the SC has much better grip on hard snow and ice than the Brahma 82's. Make sure you have a good 0.5/3 or 1/3 tune.

The Head Rebel e/i.Race are great skis which I enjoy, however I find the WRT to be a bit easier to ski, a bit more forgiving, and a touch smoother--but is that worth twice the cost?

Head nomenclature can be confusing; keep in mind that the Head Rebel e.Speed is more a pseudo GS/Beer League ski like a Laser GS, while the similarly named Head SuperShape e.Speed is more of a easy going, versatile sport carver like the SC.

While I like and own both, I find the Laser GS to be easier to use, offers greater versatility, is more forgiving, and is smoother than the Head Rebel e/i.Speed--again whether that is worth nearly double the cost is another story. Both the 18-19m radius Laser GS and the Rebel e/i.Speed are suitable for cruising on resort slopes and neither of them require the strength and skill necessary to effectively use a 20-30m Masters or FIS GS ski. However based on your comments, neither the Laser GS nor the Head Rebel e/i.Speed is likely what you are looking for.

Bottom line for what you state you need: If you want a versatile, forgiving, smooth and highly capable sport carver which works well on-piste all over the resort in a variety of conditions including ice, get an SC or Head SuperShape e/i.Speed (the Head SuperShape Magnum would also likely work, but I have no experience with them). If you want a more precise, but also more demanding ski that is somewhat less versatile, but offers a higher speed limit then go with the WRT or Head e/i.Race.
I'll just add that literally ANY of these skis being discussed are going to run rings around a Brahma 82 when it comes to grip and suitability in dealing with hard icy conditions. That part of meeting your goals is a given no matter what you pick.

What isn't always apparent without skiing skis back-to-back in the same conditions is how they vary in torsional stiffness. I've found that there really is a sweet spot for me when the torsional stiffness is enough to hold well, but not so stiff that the ski becomes very "digital" (quite On/Off with no ability to easily handle changes in pressure and edge angles, i.e. more analog). The special skis are those that manage to be well matched to your weight and skills so that they become very intuitive to use.
 
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Rebound Hound

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I figured the e-race would be easier than the laser GS just because the turn radius is so much shorter than the 18.2180cm GS I tried. Is the e-race a big step up from the supershape e-speed? I didn't think the e-speed would be that flexible as it's still very narrow. I actually had a flex of the e-speed in a shop and to me it felt softer than my brahma 82 or maybe similar. That was laterally - I didn't really check torsional stiffness. Then again it's not like the SC is very stiff but i'd say more so than the e-speed probably. I liked that the SC still gives good rebound even though it's not particularly stiff. I do like to feel pressure reaction for skis. The atomic G9 felt more like an on/off switch where you had to hit a certain speed and big amount of power to get a reaction. Is the e-race like that? Does the turn radius feel bigger than it is because of the stiffness?

I did really love the Laser GS but I think I would enjoy it more in the 175 and more of a 15/16m turn radius. I guess I could get that if I went 170cm (I'm 180cm tall). Yes I currently have my Brahmas at 0.5 base and 87 degrees but they're still pretty awful for the conditions.
 
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ski otter 2

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Interestingly, I have both the Stöckli 172cm WRT and the 177cm SC, as well as the 185cm Laser GS, along with some 165cm FIS SL’s and 183-188cm 21-30m radius Masters/FIS GS skis.

Over the Holidays I had some spare time, so I tested the above skis back to back at Squaw--free skiing on west coast “hard surface” groomers (probably equivalent to East Coast powder), a variety of bumps, a few inches of fresh, as well as some cut-up mank. Keep in mind I am a 6 ft, 210lbs old guy who grew up racing straight skis and has a more "directional" style.

A lot of my thoughts are in concordance with what has been said earlier in this thread, but some will differ.

Each of the Stöckli’s in question—WRT, SC, GS are among my favorite recreational carving skis, although if I could only have one of them, it would probably be the SC. I find each of these Stöckli’s to offer easy turn initiation over a wide range of speeds, great edge grip on almost all surfaces, good rebound energy, larger than average sweet spots, and a greater degree of forgiveness than many other similar caliber skis.

In my experience, one simple observation has been that folks who enjoy a FIS SL will like the WRT, while those who don’t appreciate a FIS SL are more comfortable with the SC.

I have previously written about my experiences with the SC, but to recap, after moving the bindings forward 1.5cm, the SC turn shape can be varied from nearly SL tight to almost GS wide on surfaces ranging from icy hard morning groomers to soft afternoon slush. The SC is quite fun in both firm and soft moguls. It can also handle a few inches of fresh snow without issues. Turn initiation on the SC is as easy and intuitive as on my 177cm Head SuperShape Rally, but the SC is smoother and has a much higher speed limit than the Rally. In addition, the SC has a very large “sweet spot” and is equally forgiving as the less capable Rally. The Head 177cm SuperShape Speed is closer in top end performance to the SC, but the SS Speed is not as refined or smooth. On my feet, the SC offers a wider performance range than other sport carvers like the Atomic Redster, Nordica Spitfire, Völkl Deacon and others of that ilk. The SC is not quite as precise, scalpel-like, or powerful as the Head e/i.Race or Stöckli WRT for that matter, but the SC is much more fun and adaptable to a wider variety of conditions and terrain. In many ways the SC offers similar versatility and capability as my 181cm Rossi Hero Elite Plus Ti, although the Rossi has a bit more energy, while the SC is more elegant (maybee ZR1 vs. 911). The on-piste breadth and ease offered by the SC is surprising—I suspect both experts and strong intermediates will find the SC a joy carving up groomers, as well as zipping bumps, and roaming all over the mountain on-piste. If you can handle a Head Rally or Liberty V-series, you can manage an SC.

The 172cm WRT is somewhat similar to the 170-175cm Head e/i.Race, particularly in turn shape, although the WRT feels even closer in energy, edge grip, and quickness to my 165cm Rossi FIS SL. When I am on my game, I actually like my FIS SL in the bumps and unsurprisingly the WRT also works well for me in moguls. Like a FIS SL, the WRT is definitely quicker, offers more precision, and demonstrates a bit higher speed limit than the SC. However, the SC is palpably more versatile, has a greater tolerance of errors in technique, and handles a broader breadth of on-piste terrain all over the resort. Note that while the WRT is quite stable arcing turns at high velocities, it can also be whipped around at slower speeds without much effort. FWIW, after experimenting back and forth, I ended up with the WRT's mounted on the line. In short, the WRT is very much like a FIS SL, but with a bit wider turn radius and a touch gentler manners. The WRT's are a blast to cruise around on! Now to burst a few bubbles: At no time has the 172cm WRT ever felt as smooth and stable in longer turns as a 20-30m Masters or FIS GS ski. For that matter, even pseudo-GS sport carvers like the 185cm Stöckli Laser GS or 180cm Head Rebel i.Speed offer better long turn capability than the 172cm WRT. For me, the 172cm WRT definitely feels more like a slightly larger radius FIS SL and not at all like a GS ski--be it FIS, Masters, or Sport.

As recently noted in another thread about my 185cm Stöckli Laser GS; after moving the bindings forward 2cm, I have fallen in love with them for medium and long turn sport carving. They have easy turn initiation at all speeds, feel silky smooth, are stable and grippy on hard surfaces, but can also bust through loose crud. The Laser GS obviously offers a very high speed limit, but they are also surprisingly easy to ski and turn when going slower. Unexpectedly, the Laser GS was able handle about 12" of fresh snow and were also reasonably well behaved in moguls--hmmm, almost an all mountain ski. I like the 185cm Laser GS so much that they have replaced my 182cm AX's, much like I prefer my 177cm SC to the 175cm AX.

I find the Laser GS to be a great complement to my SC's.
Thanks very much for your detailed comments on such neat skis.
Just to see if we are on the same page, what binding setup do you have on your WRTs?

What you write to me fits the SRT setup for them, maybe other setups, but not the Stöckli Rep's WRT plate/rubber pad/WRT binding setup at SIA.

In addition, to me there is a huge difference in my experience with these skis depending on the binding and plate, or lack of plate setup.
So much so that it's easy to talk past each other to a great degree with these skis, without that info eventually.

Also, I think which of these skis I'd pick or suggest - and their actual performance - depends very much on where one plans to ski.
Back East I'd want a shorter turning scalpel, more often.
And the dynamics and experience of using an FIS GS ski recreationally, in different locations would tend to change a lot, for most.

(Note: I too own many of the skis discussed in this thread, though not the SC or WRT ST. But I tend to prefer the FIS GS and SL, currently; though a variety of skis is always fun.)
 

DocGKR

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The WRT's are wearing Salomon X16 bindings.

And yes, I have a definite Rockies-Wasatch-Sierras bias, as I have not skied the East Coast in 30 years.

-----------------------------------

I don't see much point to a 170 or 175 Laser GS (after all it is supposed to sorta of be a GS ski); at that shorter length, I'd much rather have a 170 or 177 SC or a 172 WRT.

The Head SuperShape e/i.Speed is much closer in performance to the Head e/i.Race than it is to something like the Head Rally. Each of the Heads do everything the corresponding Stöckli's do, but the Heads have a taughter suspension and a touch less forgiveness, while the Stöckli's are smoother and more supple, but equally capable--but again you are paying much more for the Stöcklis.

I am quite happy skiing any of the models we have discussed.

Muleski turned me on to the 177cm SuperShape i.Speed last year, as well as previously recommending the 180cm Rebel i.Speed and i.Race. Whenever he speaks, I listen, as he is a fount of knowledge that I greatly respect...
 
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Rebound Hound

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So I finally found a shop that had the WRTs to demo! Here are my thoughts:

I had an awesome day on the WRT. They certainly embarrassed my to my Brahma 82s on piste and made me wonder why I ever switched to all mountain/freeride. The grip was miles better. I had the confidence to charge steeps again and sweep my legs out wide to get good edge angle knowing it would hold. Only very occasionally on bit of particularly bad ice did they struggle to grip. They were tuned to factory of 1 degree base and 88 degree side so I could get more grip if required.

I was expecting them to be a real handful and punishing but I had absolutely no issues with them. When skied hard the rebound was awesome - powerful enough to shunt your legs across your body like they were turning themselves - It felt like they were doing the work for me sometimes. Maybe they have an autopilot mode? This felt much more apparent when really going at it. It felt smooth though like instead of throwing you into the air as much as atomic might I nearly always kept snow contact.

It was much easier to do drills on - skiing on one ski using both edges was so much easier due to the narrow width I guess.

They were mounted with the SRT Speed Plate and SRT 12 bindings. I don't know if I should upgrade that setup to the Carbon plate perhaps or other bindings? What would I gain / lose? What is the difference between the SRT 12 and the FF16 bindings other than just the extra 4 din settings? Are the better made or more durable or made of different materials? I had mine set to 8 today which is fine.

I'm trying the SC again tomorrow for comparisons sake. They don't have the GS as they said no one wants to buy them but they have the SX. I'm quite happy with the 15-16m radius though. I do wonder whether it would be worth trying the 180cm WRT or not. It might be worth trying a 173cm SX but my previous turtle shell experience made me think it lacked rebound and energy.

One thing I noticed that I missed is that they didn't have that feeling of ripping me into the turn with the tips like I had experienced with the GS - I not sure why that was. Could it be snow conditions, tuning or just the ski - i'm not sure. The GS I tried were brand new but the WRT I tried did have some pervious rental use.
 
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Rebound Hound

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Tried the SC today and I remember liking it more the last time I skied it. It's a good ski with a nice rebound to it, good grip and probably quite versatile. Like a comfortable slipper perhaps. I felt like it was a significant downgrade from the WRT though. The WRT felt sharper, more powerful, more exciting and more precise. So I'm going to go with the WRT. Tomorrow i'm going to try the 180cm with the Carbon binding and then choose between them. It might give me a bit more fore aft stability perhaps or it may just be more difficult to maneuver. The guys in the shop seem to think the WRT plate and binding are too heavy, too stiff and not really suitable or necessary. I'm not sure of the weight difference but I am curious about them. I felt like the SRT 12 could be more solid with less movement forward/back lateral movement in the plastics. Didn't feel anywhere near as solid as my Marker Griffon 13 that is screwed directly to my ski.
 

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Yup--the SC is comfortable and versatile; the WRT is definitely sharper and more precise. Look forward to hearing about your trial of the 180 WRT, as I have not had a chance to ski that yet! Are you going to get a chance to try the e.Race?
 
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Rebound Hound

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Ok so I skied the 180cm all day today. I'm absolutely knackered with this ski testing. Hard charging for 6-7 hours every day. For me the 180cm felt more stable and easier to be centred fore aft. I was expecting it to be difficult to control but it wasn't. It gave me supreme confidence to charge any slope no matter how icy or steep. It can still turn really sort but with this length and slightly increased turn radius it makes it feel a bit more GS and the 172cm feels a bit more slalom. I was able to catch air with the rebound when really pressuring the tips and it had me laughing a few times as I skied. I did find that to get this rebound I really had to be driving the boot and leaning over the ski as far as I possibly could. I wonder if moving the mount point a few cm forward would make a difference as one of the main things I love about this ski is it's rebound reacting when driving the tips. It was much easier to achieve and seemed to come more naturally to the 172cm. It gave me more of that feeling I like more of the time at the expense of some stability. I felt like I had to work the WRT a lot harder to get that rebound but when you get it you will fly. I can certainly feel my back muscles have worked today. Heavy cardio too! I'm exhausted.

I do wonder if I moved the mount point on the 180cm if it would feel more like the 172cm but give that added stability? It's something i've never experimented with personally. I feel like a 175cm or 176cm would probably be ideal so perhaps If I tried it 2-3cm forward it might be the best of both worlds?

The WRT is a brilliant ski - there's no doubt about it. Probably the best piste ski Stöckli make - i've now tried the GS, SC, SX, AX, SL and I wouldn't choose any of them over the WRT. The 181cm Atomic X9S is nowhere near the ski the 180cm WRT is in my opinion even if they do have similar attributes on paper. If I could get both sizes I probably would. I don't think there's much chance of me trying the Head E-race as I haven't seen any shops that sell them in Verbier. You feel lucky to find any piste skis at all here - everyone's mad for the fatties!
 

wallyk

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Hard charging for 6-7 hours every day.
If you're skiing the WRT for 6-7 hours I'm sure you have the strength and technical prowness to manage the product. Enjoy it...jealous that you can own the WRT and use it proper ski areas.

I demo'd the WRT with a neutral mount (and one slightly forward) in Zermatt and returned it after 3 hours. WRT was like being on rails and had fantastic energy that responded to my every input. I was wearing Lange RX 120 but kept thinking how a stiffer boot would've enhance the experience. As soon as I slacked off and was not technically precise the WRT lets the skier know. This was a constant challenge while I skied the WRT. Because I was in a foreign country for work and unfamiliar with Zermatt I was uncomfortable giving the WRT the necessary speed.
 
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Rebound Hound

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I also ski the exact same boot - RX120. It's downsized and modified for fit with a custom liner and booster strap. The 180 I could ski it kind of neutral if I wanted but it really comes a live when you get as far forward as possible and really pressure the tips. With the 172 it felt like you could pressure the tips constantly so you can get that amazing rebound and automatic turns whenever you want it (which is all the time right?). As the speed and steepness ramps up I didn't feel as secure though - sometimes I felt like I was too far forward, sometimes too far back. I'm trying the 172 again today.

I might try the 180 moved a few cm forward just to see if I can have the best of both worlds?
 

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With all the work you put in to your quest, you deserve a second pair ...... you know, just to alternatively rest them! :ogbiggrin:
 

Prov1kanobi

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Congrats! Welcome to the club. I’m hoping that laughing while skiing doesnt go away. I had the same experience the first time I had them on hard pack. I was concerned about it being a quiver killer, but after going 4 hours on the WRT this weekend, followed by 3 on the MX84 I’m happy to report that is not the case. It’s actually a most excellent 1/2 combo, and with a Scale Delta for poor conditions I am always sure to be having as much fun as possible any given day.
 

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Congrats! Welcome to the club. I’m hoping that laughing while skiing doesnt go away. I had the same experience the first time I had them on hard pack. I was concerned about it being a quiver killer, but after going 4 hours on the WRT this weekend, followed by 3 on the MX84 I’m happy to report that is not the case. It’s actually a most excellent 1/2 combo, and with a Scale Delta for poor conditions I am always sure to be having as much fun as possible any given day.
Small thread drift...

How does the Scale Delta compare to the other skis in your quiver (or others you have skied)? I "missed" the Scale Delta while I was on my skiing hiatus so I'm wondering how it matches up.
 

Prov1kanobi

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Based on the target market for that ski, I would have figured it was not something I would like. Lesser than everything else I have. Bendy is not something that fits my taste buds obviously given my love of the WRT. With bendy you usually get some speed limit issues. Ive carved some fairly steep hills 180 degree turns at 42+ mph and it has exceeded my expectations for what is termed an intermediate ski. I don’t know how they have engineered this thing to be damp at speed and bendy at both slow and fast speeds. There have been days where I could do things no one else could Given conditions. You really don’t even need to get an edge with it to have fun so it takes mashed potatoes and makes it more like a spring corn day. Ive put every bit of my weight into the thing and it just behaves. I call it the day fixer for when conditions are at the worst, you try race type skis and they aren’t fun because you can’t bend them. You throw these on and with very little effort they are bending, and playful. Yet, high speed cranked turns in crud are still possible and exceptional. I wouldn’t be afraid to throw them on in firm conditions either, although I have better choices for that. I really believe this is the Stöckli the average skier should be on, not an AX or AR. I think its been overlooked by most because the “LASER” tag isn’t on it. ANother ski that I find close is a Dynastar Course Pro TI, very similar buttery feel but a bit bendier than a full race ski. Obviously the sidecut is significantly different especially at the width so Course Pro probably not nearly as versatile at a mid 70’s waist. I can’t wait to test the 2017 vs the 2019 I just purchased!
 

Noodler

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Based on the target market for that ski, I would have figured it was not something I would like. Lesser than everything else I have. Bendy is not something that fits my taste buds obviously given my love of the WRT. With bendy you usually get some speed limit issues. Ive carved some fairly steep hills 180 degree turns at 42+ mph and it has exceeded my expectations for what is termed an intermediate ski. I don’t know how they have engineered this thing to be damp at speed and bendy at both slow and fast speeds. There have been days where I could do things no one else could Given conditions. You really don’t even need to get an edge with it to have fun so it takes mashed potatoes and makes it more like a spring corn day. Ive put every bit of my weight into the thing and it just behaves. I call it the day fixer for when conditions are at the worst, you try race type skis and they aren’t fun because you can’t bend them. You throw these on and with very little effort they are bending, and playful. Yet, high speed cranked turns in crud are still possible and exceptional. I wouldn’t be afraid to throw them on in firm conditions either, although I have better choices for that. I really believe this is the Stöckli the average skier should be on, not an AX or AR. I think its been overlooked by most because the “LASER” tag isn’t on it. ANother ski that I find close is a Dynastar Course Pro TI, very similar buttery feel but a bit bendier than a full race ski. Obviously the sidecut is significantly different especially at the width so Course Pro probably not nearly as versatile at a mid 70’s waist. I can’t wait to test the 2017 vs the 2019 I just purchased!
Thanks. You confirmed exactly what I suspected. I also have "lower line" Stöcklis that never got the "big press" and they're all sleepers in disguise. It started with the Stöckli Pro for me and then the Stöckli Spirit Globe. Both marketed as "intermediate" skis yet they're wood sandwich construction with 2 layers of Ti. Then I luckily got a demo of the original Spirit OTwo and that ski blew me away with just how silky smooth a ski can be (it's honestly ridiculously good and I now own 2 pairs). That one turned out to be a PugSki tester sleeper favorite among those in the know. Now I just picked up last season's Axis Pro and once again, here's a ski that acts like it's not supposed to be a high performer and yet it has the construction and is stiffer than my 2014 Laser CX. I put a real plate on it and bindings and it's just a fantastic ski. Sure all these skis have a more obvious upper speed limit than the real deal Laser line, but I rarely approach that in my everyday skiing.

There are some deals to be found if skiers are willing to look at the rest of the Stöckli models that they might not think are the ski for them. On second thought, forget it, all Stöckli skis targeted for intermediates suck. ;)

Edit P.S. - the skis I'm on in my avatar are the Stöckli Spirit OTwo.
 
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Prov1kanobi

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Thanks. You confirmed exactly what I suspected. I also have "lower line" Stöcklis that never got the "big press" and they're all sleepers in disguise. It started with the Stöckli Pro for me and then the Stöckli Spirit Globe. Both marketed as "intermediate" skis yet they're wood sandwich construction with 2 layers of Ti. Then I luckily got a demo of the original Spirit OTwo and that ski blew me away with just how silky smooth a ski can be (it's honestly ridiculously good and I now own 2 pairs). That one turned out to be a PugSki tester sleeper favorite among those in the know. Now I just picked up last season's Axis Pro and once again, here's a ski that acts like it's not supposed to be a high performer and yet it has the construction and is stiffer than my 2014 Laser CX. I put a real plate on it and bindings and it's just a fantastic ski. Sure all these skis have a more obvious upper speed limit than the real deal Laser line, but I rarely approach that in my everyday skiing.

There are some deals to be found if skiers are willing to look at the rest of the Stöckli models that they might not think are the ski for them. On second thought, forget it, all Stöckli skis targeted for intermediates suck. ;)

Edit P.S. - the skis I'm on in my avatar are the Stöckli Spirit OTwo.
Nothing to see here....move along people....Lasers and Stormriders only....all other Stöckli are useless
 
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