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Stockli Tune Specs/what's wrong with my tune? (Lindsey--can you weigh in?)

Cantankerous

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Hello All;

I took my SR 95's to a very well respected tune shop; these guys know what they're doing.. When I took the skis back out--I felt a very distinctive grabby sensation mid turn; as though in the mid turn the ski suddenly pulled me into a 45 degree angle. However at speed--this sensation disappeared. When I took the ski back to the shop--they said they'd put some more bevel on it--and it should be ok. (They were very nice and accommodating). When I took the ski out again--it till felt like ti was pulling at slow speeds--however the felling was less so than before.

I stopped by the original ski shop where i bought the skis to ask for specific tune dimensions--and the shop guy said that Stockli was very specific--2 over 1.4. Not 2 over 1. Not 2 over 1.3. 2 over 1.4

Next I stopped by another well regarded specialty tuning shop. They said their standard tune on these skis is 2 over 1. They also said that they didn't think they could set their machine to 1.4. For some reason he thought he could go to a 1.1--which I really didn't understand.

Importantly--he said that the feeling i was describing was very typical of a ski that has a base level of less than 1...

Here are my questions--

Can any one confirm that the tune on the SR 95's--must be 2 over 1.4 (Lindsey ?)

if so--does t make sense that the specialty tune can't set their machine to a 1.4 base precisely ?

Does the sensation I am describing sound like the result of a base bevel below 1 degree? Is this possible a racing oriented tune--because as mentioned--the skis do feel very good at speed--but just super grabby/pulling at slower speeds.

Thank you for your help.

Also--just checking--Phil I hope you are feeling better and taking appropriate care...
 

Andy Mink

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I have felt grabby skis when the base structure itself is not consistent. A little deeper in spots in certain conditions and the ski gets catchy until you're up in edge. Even stopping feels weird.
 

ScottB

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I own a pair of Laser AX's. From Lindsey their factory tune is 1.4 base and 2 side. I think that applies to your SR95's as well. I personally don't like that tune, and I have a 0.5 base and 3 side tune. I love it, but I ski New England and I like race skis. Its more precise, better edge hold, and reacts a lot quicker to skier input. This is not meant to confuse you, just saying a very different tune won't make the ski do weird things. 95% of the time a ski doin weird things is due to a base bevel that varies along the length of the ski or a hanging burr. Hanging burrs are easy to get rid of by hand with a ceramic stone. They are just a little piece of edge that sticks up above the normal edge and needs to be knocked off with a stone. You can feel it by lightly running your finger along the edge, don't cut yourself.
An inconsistent base bevel is just a bad grind by the shop and needs a "retune" to correct.

The second shop is correct in that it takes a redressing of the grinding stone to change the base bevel and he is saying to you he is not willing to do that for your one pair of skis. BTW, you typically list the base bevel first, side second, so a 1 / 2 tune is what they are offering you. That is a perfectly acceptable tune and will be almost indistinguishable from a 1.4 /2 tune. I doubt I could tell the difference.

How to solve your issue, I recommend running a ceramic stone along both the bottom and side edge, flat or parallel to the edge and make sure no hanging burrs. A shop can do this for you in 5 minutes or you can if you have a stone. Go ski them. If still there, take a soft gummy stone and rubb it on the tip and tails gently to very slightly dull them. They might be overly sharp and a little grabby. This is pretty normal when getting skis tuned. It takes me 2-3 runs on freshly tuned skis for them to dull just a bit and ski 100% normal. If this doesn't work, take them to the second shop you mention and have them tune them. A retune is the only way to correct an inconsistent base bevel. Tell them they are skiing funny and hopefully the new shop will inspect/measure them to understand if something is off and focus on correcting that. A 1 / 2 tune will be fine and the same as the 1.4 / 2 factory numbers. Don't sweat the 0.4 difference. When its below 1.0 on the base ( ie 0.25 , 0.50, 0.75 ) a little means a lot, but over 1.0 not as much. Over 2.0 base bevel is very hard to ski as you have to roll your skis on edge a lot before the edges grab the snow. It doesn't sound like much, (1.0 degree difference) but I have skied skis with 2 and 3 deg base bevels and felt "what the F*** happened to the edges on these skis"

BTW, edges only matter on hard snow, in soft snow the edges do very little and the tune is not very important. Everything I said above assumes you are skiing on firm to hard snow. IF you are on soft snow and experiencing this, I don't know what to say other than its strange.
 
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flbufl

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Chart copied from another thread on this forum:

Can any one confirm that the tune on the SR 95's--must be 2 over 1.4 (Lindsey ?)

Yes, please refer to the below chart.

if so--does t make sense that the specialty tune can't set their machine to a 1.4 base precisely?

Yes, some tuning machine ski shops use cannot do 1.4 base. But plenty can do. Stockli themselves use a Montana machine I believe.

Does the sensation I am describing sound like the result of a base bevel below 1 degree? Is this possible a racing oriented tune--because as mentioned--the skis do feel very good at speed--but just super grabby/pulling at slower speeds.

I doubt. I personally like and always use 0.5 base for carving skis. But I never saw or heard any ski shop doing .5 by default without asking the customer.

How often do you tune your skis? Maybe you just have not been on sharp skis for a while and need to get used to.

BE36E40F-662F-471F-A172-363226D8F9F7.png
 
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Tony S

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I felt a very distinctive grabby sensation mid turn; as though in the mid turn the ski suddenly pulled me into a 45 degree angle.
I'm not understanding this description, specifically the "45 degree angle" part. 45 degree angle between what and what?

Can any one confirm that the tune on the SR 95's--must be 2 over 1.4 (Lindsey ?)
I feel safe in saying that there is no "must" on this in any way. A ski is a ski. It should ski well, consistently, and predictably on a well-executed 3 x 0.5 or on a 1 x 1. Of course it will ski DIFFERENTLY on those two tunes. The first might be preferred by a carve-oriented type in NE and the second by a western slitherer, but either way wouldn't "mess up" the ski's performance.

The fact that you're asking this question at all suggests to me that you don't have specific preferences and therefore should go with a middle of the road tune - e.g., 2 x 1. As for how well the shop executed the tune, the fact that it's "well respected" may not tell the whole story. A well respected shop can still put out a bad tune on a bad day, if the new kid was in charge or whatever.

What was the "before" state of the tune? Are these skis that you were skiing right along with tune A and were happy before the shop gave you tune B? If so, where did tune A come from? Or had you never skied this pair before the shop tuned them up?
 

Atomicman

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I'm not understanding this description, specifically the "45 degree angle" part. 45 degree angle between what and what?


I feel safe in saying that there is no "must" on this in any way. A ski is a ski. It should ski well, consistently, and predictably on a well-executed 3 x 0.5 or on a 1 x 1. Of course it will ski DIFFERENTLY on those two tunes. The first might be preferred by a carve-oriented type in NE and the second by a western slitherer, but either way wouldn't "mess up" the ski's performance.

The fact that you're asking this question at all suggests to me that you don't have specific preferences and therefore should go with a middle of the road tune - e.g., 2 x 1. As for how well the shop executed the tune, the fact that it's "well respected" may not tell the whole story. A well respected shop can still put out a bad tune on a bad day, if the new kid was in charge or whatever.

What was the "before" state of the tune? Are these skis that you were skiing right along with tune A and were happy before the shop gave you tune B? If so, where did tune A come from? Or had you never skied this pair before the shop tuned them up?
To stay on the same page for everyone, you always quote base bevel first. so .5/3 or a 1/2 are base edge/side edge. Becomes very important with these odd number bevels.
 

Tony Storaro

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I own a pair of Laser AX's. From Lindsey their factory tune is 1.4 base and 2 side. I think that applies to your SR95's as well. I personally don't like that tune, and I have a 0.5 base and 3 side tune.

How do I go from 1.3/2 to 0.5/3? Will I need to sacrifice lots of base?

I realized how much better 0,5/3 is only after I got the WRT-ST with that tune but my AX were already at 1.3/2 so I am wondering...:rolleyes:

BTW my SR95s came at about 0,75 base from the factory and I like them so much that I am keeping this base as it is.
 
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KingGrump

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How do I go from 1.3/2 to 0.5/3? Will I need to sacrifice lots of base?

I realized how much better 0,5/3 is only after I got the WRT-ST with that tune but my AX were already at 1.3/2 so I am wondering...:rolleyes:

BTW my SR95s came at about 0,75 base from the factory and I like them so much that I am keeping this base as it is.

A usual base grind will allow you to reset your base bevel to whatever.
Imo, set the angles to whatever put a smile on your face.
 

Ken_R

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Hello All;

I took my SR 95's to a very well respected tune shop; these guys know what they're doing.. When I took the skis back out--I felt a very distinctive grabby sensation mid turn; as though in the mid turn the ski suddenly pulled me into a 45 degree angle. However at speed--this sensation disappeared. When I took the ski back to the shop--they said they'd put some more bevel on it--and it should be ok. (They were very nice and accommodating). When I took the ski out again--it till felt like ti was pulling at slow speeds--however the felling was less so than before.

I stopped by the original ski shop where i bought the skis to ask for specific tune dimensions--and the shop guy said that Stöckli was very specific--2 over 1.4. Not 2 over 1. Not 2 over 1.3. 2 over 1.4

Next I stopped by another well regarded specialty tuning shop. They said their standard tune on these skis is 2 over 1. They also said that they didn't think they could set their machine to 1.4. For some reason he thought he could go to a 1.1--which I really didn't understand.

Importantly--he said that the feeling i was describing was very typical of a ski that has a base level of less than 1...

Here are my questions--

Can any one confirm that the tune on the SR 95's--must be 2 over 1.4 (Lindsey ?)

if so--does t make sense that the specialty tune can't set their machine to a 1.4 base precisely ?

Does the sensation I am describing sound like the result of a base bevel below 1 degree? Is this possible a racing oriented tune--because as mentioned--the skis do feel very good at speed--but just super grabby/pulling at slower speeds.

Thank you for your help.

Also--just checking--Phil I hope you are feeling better and taking appropriate care...

In my experience when a ski feels REALLY weird it is not something minuscule like a 0.1 or even 0.4 change in a base bevel. It is usually some inconsistency like the ski is railed or the opposite (base higher than edge) and not throughout the ski but in some areas. (or full of hanging burrs but that is obvious)

So, run a true bar front to back see what you find.

 

Steve

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I own a pair of Laser AX's. From Lindsey their factory tune is 1.4 base and 2 side. I think that applies to your SR95's as well. I personally don't like that tune, and I have a 0.5 base and 3 side tune. I love it, but I ski New England and I like race skis. Its more precise, better edge hold, and reacts a lot quicker to skier input. This is not meant to confuse you, just saying a very different tune won't make the ski do weird things. 95% of the time a ski doin weird things is due to a base bevel that varies along the length of the ski or a hanging burr. Hanging burrs are easy to get rid of by hand with a ceramic stone. They are just a little piece of edge that sticks up above the normal edge and needs to be knocked off with a stone. You can feel it by lightly running your finger along the edge, don't cut yourself.
An inconsistent base bevel is just a bad grind by the shop and needs a "retune" to correct.

The second shop is correct in that it takes a redressing of the grinding stone to change the base bevel and he is saying to you he is not willing to do that for your one pair of skis. BTW, you typically list the base bevel first, side second, so a 1 / 2 tune is what they are offering you. That is a perfectly acceptable tune and will be almost indistinguishable from a 1.4 /2 tune. I doubt I could tell the difference.

How to solve your issue, I recommend running a ceramic stone along both the bottom and side edge, flat or parallel to the edge and make sure no hanging burrs. A shop can do this for you in 5 minutes or you can if you have a stone. Go ski them. If still there, take a soft gummy stone and rubb it on the tip and tails gently to very slightly dull them. They might be overly sharp and a little grabby. This is pretty normal when getting skis tuned. It takes me 2-3 runs on freshly tuned skis for them to dull just a bit and ski 100% normal. If this doesn't work, take them to the second shop you mention and have them tune them. A retune is the only way to correct an inconsistent base bevel. Tell them they are skiing funny and hopefully the new shop will inspect/measure them to understand if something is off and focus on correcting that. A 1 / 2 tune will be fine and the same as the 1.4 / 2 factory numbers. Don't sweat the 0.4 difference. When its below 1.0 on the base ( ie 0.25 , 0.50, 0.75 ) a little means a lot, but over 1.0 not as much. Over 2.0 base bevel is very hard to ski as you have to roll your skis on edge a lot before the edges grab the snow. It doesn't sound like much, (1.0 degree difference) but I have skied skis with 2 and 3 deg base bevels and felt "what the F*** happened to the edges on these skis"

BTW, edges only matter on hard snow, in soft snow the edges do very little and the tune is not very important. Everything I said above assumes you are skiing on firm to hard snow. IF you are on soft snow and experiencing this, I don't know what to say other than its strange.
+1 on everything here.

I will add that a few years ago I had a pair of skis ground and both myself and a friend could barely ski them down a green slope. Something was weird. It turned out it wasn't the edges at all, but something really messed up with the structure. The skis couldn't track or turn in any predicable way.

I've never heard anyone else talk about this, but I think a bad grind can cause issues with the base.

Now "mid-turn" is when you're having the problem, that's maximum pressure time, so maybe it is the structure?
 

AmyPJ

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+1 on everything here.

I will add that a few years ago I had a pair of skis ground and both myself and a friend could barely ski them down a green slope. Something was weird. It turned out it wasn't the edges at all, but something really messed up with the structure. The skis couldn't track or turn in any predicable way.

I've never heard anyone else talk about this, but I think a bad grind can cause issues with the base.

Now "mid-turn" is when you're having the problem, that's maximum pressure time, so maybe it is the structure?
Even worse if the grind for the base ends up on the edges of the skis.
 

Erik Timmerman

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Sounds to me like too sharp or hanging burr. I'd just hit it with a gummy or touch it lightly with a stone.

If hanging burr, run a stone really flat on the base edge. If I wanted to dull it, run a gummy stone or other stone 45 degrees to the edge.
 

Doug Briggs

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...
An inconsistent base bevel is just a bad grind by the shop and needs a "retune" to correct.

The second shop is correct in that it takes a redressing of the grinding stone to change the base bevel and he is saying to you he is not willing to do that for your one pair of skis. BTW, you typically list the base bevel first, side second, so a 1 / 2 tune is what they are offering you. That is a perfectly acceptable tune and will be almost indistinguishable from a 1.4 /2 tune. I doubt I could tell the difference.

How to solve your issue, I recommend running a ceramic stone along both the bottom and side edge, flat or parallel to the edge and make sure no hanging burrs. A shop can do this for you in 5 minutes or you can if you have a stone. Go ski them. If still there, take a soft gummy stone and rubb it on the tip and tails gently to very slightly dull them. They might be overly sharp and a little grabby. This is pretty normal when getting skis tuned. It takes me 2-3 runs on freshly tuned skis for them to dull just a bit and ski 100% normal. If this doesn't work, take them to the second shop you mention and have them tune them. A retune is the only way to correct an inconsistent base bevel. Tell them they are skiing funny and hopefully the new shop will inspect/measure them to understand if something is off and focus on correcting that. A 1 / 2 tune will be fine and the same as the 1.4 / 2 factory numbers. Don't sweat the 0.4 difference. When its below 1.0 on the base ( ie 0.25 , 0.50, 0.75 ) a little means a lot, but over 1.0 not as much. Over 2.0 base bevel is very hard to ski as you have to roll your skis on edge a lot before the edges grab the snow. It doesn't sound like much, (1.0 degree difference) but I have skied skis with 2 and 3 deg base bevels and felt "what the F*** happened to the edges on these skis"

BTW, edges only matter on hard snow, in soft snow the edges do very little and the tune is not very important. Everything I said above assumes you are skiing on firm to hard snow. IF you are on soft snow and experiencing this, I don't know what to say other than its strange.
You would need to grind the bases to 'blank' the ski prior to resetting the base bevel. However the base bevel is not set by the grinding stone. The stone can only flatten the bases. Redressing the stone is a common function in order to maintain the quality of or change the base structures they will provide.

Blanking insures a flat base from edge to edge and depending on how far you need to adjust the base bevel, remove enough base edge to allow the desired base bevel to be set.

The problem of trying to generate an non-typical base bevel such as 1.4 is that with an automated tuning machine the discs that set the base edge bevel would need to be recalibrated. A robotic machine such as a Wintersteiger Scout or TrimJet will have discrete settings such as .5, .75, 1 and 2. These are determined by turning a knob which in turn rotates calibrated 'flats' to mate with a contact point thus setting the angle of the edging disc.

To provide a fractional bevel setting between any of those values would require the machine to be calibrated so that that 1 = 1.4, for instance. The other bevels would adjust accordingly .5 = .9, .75 = 1.15, 2 = 2.4. The calibration process would then need to be redone after setting the skis' base bevel to return the machine to the proper adjustment to provide the manufacturers settings.

This calibration process isn't generally part of a shop tech's training by the manufacturer. It is a fairly intense process to calibrate the beveling discs and can be somewhat time consuming. It is akin to setting the cones in a replaceable bearing bicycle hub with a fair amount of trial and error as you set the cone, tighten the lock nut and determine if it is correct. Tuning machines don't typically require frequent calibration. They can provide accurate bevels for extended periods; weeks to months depending on use. The bevels can be verified by using straight edges and electronic levels to measure the angles of the actual discs as well as by checking the resultant bevels on skis that have been run through the machine. Many shops reply on the manufacturer's techs to perform the calibration adjustments.

While I think that Stöcklis are a fine ski maker, their recommended base bevels are impractical. Has anyone seen a 1.4 base bevel tool?
 

Quandary

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I wonder why any one would give a pair skis to a shop for a full tune without giving specifics directions on base and side bevel.
 

François Pugh

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Impracticable and idiotic, regardless of how many high level instructors and ex-WC skiers have skied them and declared the 1.4 base bevel optimal.
Right on! :thumb:
Besides everybody knows the optimal tune is 0.5 base, 3.0 side for regular skis and 1 base 2 side for mugul skis. :ogbiggrin:
 

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