Stockli Tune Specs/what's wrong with my tune? (Lindsey--can you weigh in?)

[Tony Storaro]

Right on!
Besides everybody knows the optimal tune is 0.5 base, 3.0 side for regular skis and 1 base 2 side for mugul skis.

Muggle skis you mean...

 

[DocGKR]

All my skis, including my Stockli's, are set as follows: those under 70 mm width are set 0.5/3, 70-90mm are 1/3, and over 90mm at 1/2.

 

[Doug Briggs]

I wonder why any one would give a pair skis to a shop for a full tune without giving specifics directions on base and side bevel.

There are a still some people that haven't been edified by reading the forums skitalk.com.

It was nice to meet you Monday.

 

[Noodler]

Hello All;

I took my SR 95's to a very well respected tune shop; these guys know what they're doing.. When I took the skis back out--I felt a very distinctive grabby sensation mid turn; as though in the mid turn the ski suddenly pulled me into a 45 degree angle. However at speed--this sensation disappeared. When I took the ski back to the shop--they said they'd put some more bevel on it--and it should be ok. (They were very nice and accommodating). When I took the ski out again--it till felt like ti was pulling at slow speeds--however the felling was less so than before.

I stopped by the original ski shop where i bought the skis to ask for specific tune dimensions--and the shop guy said that Stöckli was very specific--2 over 1.4. Not 2 over 1. Not 2 over 1.3. 2 over 1.4

Next I stopped by another well regarded specialty tuning shop. They said their standard tune on these skis is 2 over 1. They also said that they didn't think they could set their machine to 1.4. For some reason he thought he could go to a 1.1--which I really didn't understand.

Importantly--he said that the feeling i was describing was very typical of a ski that has a base level of less than 1...

Here are my questions--

Can any one confirm that the tune on the SR 95's--must be 2 over 1.4 (Lindsey ?)

if so--does t make sense that the specialty tune can't set their machine to a 1.4 base precisely ?

Does the sensation I am describing sound like the result of a base bevel below 1 degree? Is this possible a racing oriented tune--because as mentioned--the skis do feel very good at speed--but just super grabby/pulling at slower speeds.

Thank you for your help.

Also--just checking--Phil I hope you are feeling better and taking appropriate care...

If every shop you've brought your skis to is only providing "machine tunes" I highly suspect that the tips and tails of your skis are not tuned appropriately. Machines do a very poor job in the transition into the upturn of the tips and tails. Typically you'll find them under-beveled which leads to some quirky turning behavior. I recommend that you find a shop that can provide high-end hand tunes. It's a pricey service, but well worth it (since you made the investment in a nice Stockli ski).

 

[crgildart]

Right on!
Besides everybody knows the optimal tune is 0.5 base, 3.0 side for regular skis and 1 base 2 side for mugul skis.

And everyone knows a solid performance ski should NEVER have a base bevel beyond 1... unless it's a ballet ski.

 

[Erik Timmerman]

I thought it was 0.5/3 for all skis.

 

[Tony Storaro]

All my skis, including my Stöckli's, are set as follows: those under 70 mm width are set 0.5/3, 70-90mm are 1/3, and over 90mm at 1/2.

I might take a page off your book and set the AX to 1/3 instead of 0.5/3 as a first step. See how different is from 1.3/2.

 

[dovski]

I learned the hard way that even reputable shops can have lousy tune shops. My preferred shop has a brand new Montana that is painstakingly maintained. The machine auto feeds the skis after the head shop tech has cleaned and touched up the base with ptex ... etc. Coming out of the machine the edges are finished by hand and they do a proper iron in hotwax. Their machine is something special and always puts a great structure on my skis. More importantly the skis come out perfectly flat, edge angels are great and tips and tails get fine tuned by hand.

Worst tune I ever had was at a shop in Sun Peaks that specializes in race tunes. They were in a hurry and hand fed my skis over the stone in a random way that left them uneven. They also forgot to finish off my edges on one pair of skis. Live and learn

 

[ski otter 2]

I have to add to the above that the best local Stockli dealer and tune shop in this area (that does many race team skis and brand rep skis in addition to their own) is of the opinion that neither the Wintersteiger nor the Montana machines can actually flatten a ski properly. At best the ski will usually be slightly rail high. (This is my experience with shop machines also - the hard way.) Instead, only that dealer's most experienced techs run their skis through a preliminary process on a former Grindrite machine (now owned by Wintersteiger) to do the flattening, then they regularize and add texture, etc. through a top of the line Montana, which many ski reps have told me comes closer to being able to prep the tips and tails than any comparable Wintersteiger.

Then hand prep to the tips and tails, at least, is on top of that machine work - mostly done by the race team techs and brand reps themselves. For hours. They re-check and verify by hand all the machine work, taking nothing for granted.

What I do with one of those odd Stockli bevels - until I determine to change it to a more usual bevel setting down the road - is to maintain and deburr the edges by hand at the existing angle, freehand w/o a base bevel angle tool, which gets easy to do with practice and experience. Special attention has to be paid to the tip and tail area base bevels, as @Noodler posted above.

 

[dovski]

I have to add to the above that the best local Stöckli dealer and tune shop in this area (that does many race team skis and brand rep skis in addition to their own) is of the opinion that neither the Wintersteiger nor the Montana machines can actually flatten a ski properly. At best the ski will usually be slightly rail high. (This is my experience with shop machines also - the hard way.) Instead, only that dealer's most experienced techs run their skis through a preliminary process on a former Grindrite machine (now owned by Wintersteiger) to do the flattening, then they regularize and add texture, etc. through a top of the line Montana, which many ski reps have told me comes closer to being able to prep the tips and tails than any comparable Wintersteiger.

Then hand prep to the tips and tails, at least, is on top of that machine work - mostly done by the race team techs and brand reps themselves. For hours. They re-check and verify by hand all the machine work, taking nothing for granted.

What I do with one of those odd Stöckli bevels - until I determine to change it to a more usual bevel setting down the road - is to maintain and deburr the edges by hand at the existing angle, freehand w/o a base bevel angle tool, which gets easy to do with practice and experience. Special attention has to be paid to the tip and tail area base bevels, as @Noodler posted above.

Interesting perspective since if memory serves me correct Stockli uses a Montana machine for all their factory tunes. The reality is having a machine and using it are two different things, not to mention maintaining one. Personally I have had some great tunes on the higher end Montana and Wintersteiger machines with techs who know what they are doing and take pride in their work.

 

[ski otter 2]

Interesting perspective since if memory serves me correct Stöckli uses a Montana machine for all their factory tunes. The reality is having a machine and using it are two different things, not to mention maintaining one. Personally I have had some great tunes on the higher end Montana and Wintersteiger machines with techs who know what they are doing and take pride in their work.

Nope. While a really good, experienced tech/shop is indeed necessary to get the most out of both the Wintersteiger and Montana machines (and know their limitations and how to compensate), and thus the places with such good people are the places to go, the people tuning at the place I mentioned are the best of the best: they trained at the Stockli training facilities in Europe in use of those machines on Stockli skis, in a formal apprenticeship program over a long time period for already skilled and experienced techs, not a few seminars or knock off training sessions. And they had equally extensive training here in Colorado both before and after. In addition, both the owners and their folks have the necessary integrity and openness about the process. From my experience, their results are superior - not the blank looks or misinformation I've gotten so frequently from many other shops, most shops, actually, over the decades. I've heard the Stockli shop diagnosis and treatment of problem skis of different brands, and they are among the few best I know of here in Colorado, in addition to the guys doing tech as brand reps for Volkl, K2, and some other brands who told me, essentially, what I just told you.

I'm not the greatest at it, but I can and do routinely diagnose and fix by hand the problems with skis those other shops have worked on, including at one time my own. I can't tell you how many times folks have thought the problem was the skier, not the ski, when it was in fact, very often, the ski, from my point of view - something one can fix or mitigate - by hand.

 

[Doug Briggs]

When properly operated and maintained it is a piece of cake, although sometimes quite time consuming, to use an automated machine to flatten a ski; edge to edge, true bar flat, 0° base bevel. If a shop/operator can't do that, then they are in the wrong business.

I can't conceive how a ski could come out of a machine with railed edges (edges extend beyond the base vertically) unless they came in railed and were not ground sufficiently. The stone knows no difference between edge and p-tex and removes material indiscriminately. You can't remove base without getting through the edges first.

 

[dovski]

Nope. While a really good, experienced tech/shop is indeed necessary to get the most out of both the Wintersteiger and Montana machines (and know their limitations and how to compensate), and thus the places with such good people are the places to go, the people tuning at the place I mentioned are the best of the best: they trained at the Stöckli training facilities in use of those machines on Stöckli skis, in a formal apprenticeship program over a long time period for already skilled and experienced techs, not a few seminars or knock of training sessions. And they had equally extensive training here in Colorado both before and after. In addition, both the owners and their foks have the necessary integrity and openness about the process. From my experience, their results are superior - not the blank looks or misinformation I've gotten so frequently from many other shops, most shops, actually, over the decades. I've heard the Stöckli shop diagnosis and treatment of problem skis of different brands, and they are among the few best I know of here in Colorado, in addition to the guys doing tech as brand reps for Völkl, K2, and some other brands who told me, essentially, what I just told you.

I'm not the greatest at it, but I can and do routinely diagnose and fix by hand the problems with skis those other shops have worked on, including at one time my own. I can't tell you how many times folks have thought the problem was the skier, not the ski, when it was in fact, very often, the ski, from my point of view - something one can fix or mitigate - by hand.

I think we are in violent agreement but to a point. Tuning is both a science and an art. Modern machines can do a lot in the hands of a well trained tech, but those machines alone are not a magic bullet. personally there are only really 2 places in the Seattle area where I would take skis for a proper tune and that is based on my personal experience with them. My goto shop has always delivered a stellar tune. I know several shops that have great machines that were never properly maintained, as a result the stones are not in great shape and can easily wreck a pair of skis. I also think that the vase majority of skiers to do not properly tune or wax their skis, which is unfortunate.

 

[Doug Briggs]

@dovski's comment reminded me of something I forgot to mention about a point someone made about machine tunes. You do need to hand finish the tips and tails base edge especially after blanking a ski. The tips and tails are easily ground by the stone but not so readily addressed by the edging discs. That would make a ski very hooky as the tips and tails would have 0 or close to for a base bevel while the rest of the ski would have the desired base bevel.

Again, this is something a knowledgeable operator would now and do. The 'slap it in the machine and press start' kind of tuner wouldn't likely be bothered or for that matter know how to check and hand finish the tips and tails.

 

[James]

I have to add to the above that the best local Stöckli dealer and tune shop in this area (that does many race team skis and brand rep skis in addition to their own) is of the opinion that neither the Wintersteiger nor the Montana machines can actually flatten a ski properly. At best the ski will usually be slightly rail high. (This is my experience with shop machines also - the hard way.) Instead, only that dealer's most experienced techs run their skis through a preliminary process on a former Grindrite machine (now owned by Wintersteiger) to do the flattening, then they regularize and add texture, etc. through a top of the line Montana, which many ski reps have told me comes closer to being able to prep the tips and tails than any comparable Wintersteiger.

Then hand prep to the tips and tails, at least, is on top of that machine work - mostly done by the race team techs and brand reps themselves. For hours. They re-check and verify by hand all the machine work, taking nothing for granted.

What I do with one of those odd Stöckli bevels - until I determine to change it to a more usual bevel setting down the road - is to maintain and deburr the edges by hand at the existing angle, freehand w/o a base bevel angle tool, which gets easy to do with practice and experience. Special attention has to be paid to the tip and tail area base bevels, as @Noodler posted above.

Can you share the shop’s identity?
Perhaps the OP is within a few hrs drive.

 

[dovski]

Can you share the shop’s identity?
Perhaps the OP is within a few hrs drive.

Sturtevants in Bellevue WA has a new Montana and a very knowledgeable staff. All skis go through the machine properly prepped and are hand finished. I have never had a bad tune from them. They also have all the codes for all the different fancy structures you could possibly want, including the Stockli factory tune codes

 

[Doug Briggs]

I looked up Montana's lineup of machines. As they can do radial base edge bevel, I presume they can dial in any base bevel they want thus making the 1.4° a simple process. Is that right?

 

[flbufl]

I know Blossom Skis put .5 under foot, and .7 tip and tail for all their skis for years with Montana.

I looked up Montana's lineup of machines. As they can do radial base edge bevel, I presume they can dial in any base bevel they want thus making the 1.4° a simple process. Is that right?

 

[ski otter 2]

When properly operated and maintained it is a piece of cake, although sometimes quite time consuming, to use an automated machine to flatten a ski; edge to edge, true bar flat, 0° base bevel. If a shop/operator can't do that, then they are in the wrong business.

I can't conceive how a ski could come out of a machine with railed edges (edges extend beyond the base vertically) unless they came in railed and were not ground sufficiently. The stone knows no difference between edge and p-tex and removes material indiscriminately. You can't remove base without getting through the edges first.

Things with the big machines are always changing, improving. Maybe the problems of the past, and just last year, have been solved with the newest machines, don't know. But last year and before...... Not so much.

Hi, Doug. Where to start? Too much detail to put here, both my own & friends, and that of folks in the business I've tried to learn from. I'm really glad to hear it in your case, but many if not most nearby shops in Summit down valley, for example, have demonstrated (the hard way) they are not yet up to cutting that "cake" enough of the time, not with the "big machines." Those same shops have also been problematic not just for me & friends through the years, but also for ski brand reps and ski shop associates we have talked with, "around the campfire," so to speak. Strange, but those reps have had some of the same sorts of problems as I have, though some are different, and seems like they have had almost as much trouble finding good shops/machines to prep their skis, something they depend on to make a living.

Actually, maybe I can say that increasingly in recent years, many brand reps have struggled with putting decently tuned and base flattened demo skis into their own sanctioned demo day events. Often multiple skis of one top brand or another are horribly mis-tuned. And I mean badly enough to make skis at every demo almost unskiable, let alone tuned well enough for skiers/buyers to want to buy them. Maybe even worse is the poorly tuned ski that seems to ski fine, but handles very differently than was intended; and seems to be just a poor ski, rather than a poor base prep or tune.

It seems what often gets these guys in trouble is relying too heavily on those big grinding/tuning machines and the shops that use them high enough volume, even though the reps do their best to find the best shops and machines to go to.

These are the top national brand reps in the business - folks who work full time figuring out the best ways for getting their skis up and running optimally, and out to buyers; reps who share info with one another. And their primary solution to be successful with good demo skis, I'm told and have sometimes seen the results of, has not been to take their product to yet more shops with the big machines, but to find a "best of the imperfect shop" options available (usually over in Avon/Vail, in this area), as just a first imperfect step, and then spend a whole lot of hours re-working by hand, checking, re-tuning and fixing one by one, with a lot of skill and patience, ski after ski, very carefully, in house - literally, in their own homes or hotel rooms often, by hand, and with simpler, smaller hand tools mostly, and smaller ski tech power tools here and there. Yeah, and I've heard their best imperfect "first step" choice as of last season was the Montana over the Wintersteiger, mostly for the edge setting closer to tips and tails. And I've also noticed that the really skilled guys who did this tech work last season or before, seem to move on fairly quickly to other roles and jobs, or even companies, to get away from that labor intensive headache, all the reliable tune and re-tune by hand work that the big machines don't do so well.

I've listened to these guys and their friends as someone who wants to learn, and it's their input over the years that is the reason I've posted about this. My own experiences leading me to doing skis myself without the shops would not have lead me to post this, too narrow a viewpoint to generalize about.

Can you share the shop’s identity?
Perhaps the OP is within a few hrs drive.

Sorry, man, I would like to, but this has already gotten too sticky for me.
,

 

[dovski]

Things with the big machines are always changing, improving. Maybe the problems of the past, and just last year, have been solved with the newest machines, don't know. But last year and before...... Not so much.

Hi, Doug. Where to start? Too much detail to put here, both my own & friends, and that of folks in the business I've tried to learn from. I'm really glad to hear it in your case, but many if not most nearby shops in Summit down valley, for example, have demonstrated (the hard way) they are not yet up to cutting that "cake" enough of the time, not with the "big machines." Those same shops have also been problematic not just for me & friends through the years, but also for ski brand reps and ski shop associates we have talked with, "around the campfire," so to speak. Strange, but those reps have had some of the same sorts of problems as I have, though some are different, and seems like they have had almost as much trouble finding good shops/machines to prep their skis, something they depend on to make a living.

Actually, maybe I can say that increasingly in recent years, many brand reps have struggled with putting decently tuned and base flattened demo skis into their own sanctioned demo day events. Often multiple skis of one top brand or another are horribly mis-tuned. And I mean badly enough to make skis at every demo almost unskiable, let alone tuned well enough for skiers/buyers to want to buy them. Maybe even worse is the poorly tuned ski that seems to ski fine, but handles very differently than was intended; and seems to be just a poor ski, rather than a poor base prep or tune.

It seems what often gets these guys in trouble is relying too heavily on those big grinding/tuning machines and the shops that use them high enough volume, even though the reps do their best to find the best shops and machines to go to.

These are the top national brand reps in the business - folks who work full time figuring out the best ways for getting their skis up and running optimally, and out to buyers; reps who share info with one another. And their primary solution to be successful with good demo skis, I'm told and have sometimes seen the results of, has not been to take their product to yet more shops with the big machines, but to find a "best of the imperfect shop" options available (usually over in Avon/Vail, in this area), as just a first imperfect step, and then spend a whole lot of hours re-working by hand, checking, re-tuning and fixing one by one, with a lot of skill and patience, ski after ski, very carefully, in house - literally, in their own homes or hotel rooms often, by hand, and with simpler, smaller hand tools mostly, and smaller ski tech power tools here and there. Yeah, and I've heard their best imperfect "first step" choice as of last season was the Montana over the Wintersteiger, mostly for the edge setting closer to tips and tails. And I've also noticed that the really skilled guys who did this tech work last season or before, seem to move on fairly quickly to other roles and jobs, or even companies, to get away from that labor intensive headache, all the reliable tune and re-tune by hand work that the big machines don't do so well.

I've listened to these guys and their friends as someone who wants to learn, and it's their input over the years that is the reason I've posted about this. My own experiences leading me to doing skis myself without the shops would not have lead me to post this, too narrow a viewpoint to generalize about.




Sorry, man, I would like to, but this has already gotten too sticky for me.
,

Very sorry to hear about your experiences with tunes at shops with fancy machines. This is a case where I would say hate the player not the game as these machines are pretty amazing and when used properly can deliver some incredible results.
Here is a video of the Stockli manufacturing process which includes the skis going through a Montana machine
Stöckli Ski Manufacturing in Switzerland | #BuiltForPerfection - YouTube

Here is a video of the Montana machine in action
Montana Sports: Crystal One robotic ski tuning - YouTube

These machines require regular maintenance and upkeep to ensure precise tunes. If the stone goes out of balance or starts to show wear bad things happen. The shop I go to has religion around maintenance of their Montana, and they do finish off the skis by hand to ensure perfect tips and tails ... etc. I will say the structures this machine produces are works of art. Quite frankly my experience with hand fed manual machines has not been good so pretty much swear by these.