Stockli Tune Specs/what's wrong with my tune? (Lindsey--can you weigh in?)

[James]

Things with the big machines are always changing, improving. Maybe the problems of the past, and just last year, have been solved with the newest machines, don't know. But last year and before...... Not so much.

Hi, Doug. Where to start? Too much detail to put here, both my own & friends, and that of folks in the business I've tried to learn from. I'm really glad to hear it in your case, but many if not most nearby shops in Summit down valley, for example, have demonstrated (the hard way) they are not yet up to cutting that "cake" enough of the time, not with the "big machines." Those same shops have also been problematic not just for me & friends through the years, but also for ski brand reps and ski shop associates we have talked with, "around the campfire," so to speak. Strange, but those reps have had some of the same sorts of problems as I have, though some are different, and seems like they have had almost as much trouble finding good shops/machines to prep their skis, something they depend on to make a living.

Actually, maybe I can say that increasingly in recent years, many brand reps have struggled with putting decently tuned and base flattened demo skis into their own sanctioned demo day events. Often multiple skis of one top brand or another are horribly mis-tuned. And I mean badly enough to make skis at every demo almost unskiable, let alone tuned well enough for skiers/buyers to want to buy them. Maybe even worse is the poorly tuned ski that seems to ski fine, but handles very differently than was intended; and seems to be just a poor ski, rather than a poor base prep or tune.

It seems what often gets these guys in trouble is relying too heavily on those big grinding/tuning machines and the shops that use them high enough volume, even though the reps do their best to find the best shops and machines to go to.

These are the top national brand reps in the business - folks who work full time figuring out the best ways for getting their skis up and running optimally, and out to buyers; reps who share info with one another. And their primary solution to be successful with good demo skis, I'm told and have sometimes seen the results of, has not been to take their product to yet more shops with the big machines, but to find a "best of the imperfect shop" options available (usually over in Avon/Vail, in this area), as just a first imperfect step, and then spend a whole lot of hours re-working by hand, checking, re-tuning and fixing one by one, with a lot of skill and patience, ski after ski, very carefully, in house - literally, in their own homes or hotel rooms often, by hand, and with simpler, smaller hand tools mostly, and smaller ski tech power tools here and there. Yeah, and I've heard their best imperfect "first step" choice as of last season was the Montana over the Wintersteiger, mostly for the edge setting closer to tips and tails. And I've also noticed that the really skilled guys who did this tech work last season or before, seem to move on fairly quickly to other roles and jobs, or even companies, to get away from that labor intensive headache, all the reliable tune and re-tune by hand work that the big machines don't do so well.

I've listened to these guys and their friends as someone who wants to learn, and it's their input over the years that is the reason I've posted about this. My own experiences leading me to doing skis myself without the shops would not have lead me to post this, too narrow a viewpoint to generalize about.

Sorry, man, I would like to, but this has already gotten too sticky for me.

Understand.
I agree with your impressions. I think things probably have gotten worse in the last 15 years as the $250k++ machines have proliferated. This is from “good” shops. I’d hate to see indifferent ones.

The thing is with these machines, even at nearly half a million dollars, there’s no feedback to tell it the outcome. So they just do their thing and you live with it.
@dovski , structure is useless when the ski is so bad even good skiers can’t ski it.

 

[dovski]

Understand.
I agree with your impressions. I think things probably have gotten worse in the last 15 years as the $250k++ machines have proliferated. This is from “good” shops. I’d hate to see indifferent ones.

The thing is with these machines, even at nearly half a million dollars, there’s no feedback to tell it the outcome. So they just do their thing and you live with it.
@dovski , structure is useless when the ski is so bad even good skiers can’t ski it.

Completely agree James. The shop I go to hand finishes everything, so if there ever was an issue with their machine you would never know. That said the fellow who runs the shop has been tuning skis for decades and really knows his stuff. Their operation is not a set it and forget process which I fear some some shops have become. So great tuned edge with a flat well structured basis is a recipe for success in my books and that is what I get with every tune from them.

For context I do a lot of my own work on my skis - wax, small ptex repairs and minor edge work and basic polishing and sharpening. If I get a bad tune I know it before I even ski it and I address it. For major work, grinds, structure, full tune ... etc. I go to the shop.

 

[Ken_R]

Right on!
Besides everybody knows the optimal tune is 0.5 base, 3.0 side for regular skis and 1 base 2 side for mugul skis.

All my skis are 1 base 2 side since I ski in Colorado so its either moguls, powder or packed powder / wind buff.

Anyway I am not gonna give grief to a shop as long as the tune and base is even tip to tail. Most shops here tune to 1 / 2 anyway. I did tune my Monsters 1 / 3 since the shop could. Honestly I did not noticed much difference, the skis had the usual PLENTY of grip on steep Colorado "Ice". My test run for this is the Golden Eagle run at Beaver Creek. The Brink and Talon which top out at 33º and it is VERY slick unless its a powder day.

 

[ski otter 2]

What @James said in spades.
@dovski, I think you may be generalizing too much from just one shop, but don't know. Sure not my experience, so far.

I admit, if I were you and had such a near perfect nearby shop to lean on, I'd use it sometimes for, if nothing else, the experience and learning of something done so right.

Once the ski reps tell me, or my tech/shop friends who see and ski with those guys every week, tell me, that this sort of solution works consistently for them, and has gotten cheaper, I may give it a go for just base flattening, now and then, to save elbow grease, mostly. I won't hold my breath.

My own tunes are much better (and custom-taylored to the ski and skier), so far in my experience, though not near as pretty as those jaw-dropping structures of the machines.

My experience here in Colorado, where the snow during the bulk of the season is dry, light and cold, is that a minimal to almost no base structure here is fastest, and interferes with the ski function least; an involved base structure is often too deep, sharp and slow, and more likely to interfere with the optimal, most dialed in flow of the ski with skier - at least for my own recreational needs. If I put on more structure, I personally would then have to sand it, smooth it, in a graduated race-prep type of way, however shortened - such an unnecessary effort, when just great wax will do nicely.

It isn't until the spring slush that an involved structure can be okay, around here. But it's still unnecessary and not optimal, since the right wax combo for that day on the same old, near-smooth "normal and cold weather" base surface compensates for more structure pretty much completely, for a recreational skier. So no need to mess with the bases of some skis just for that short stretch of the season, no need to unnecessarily take off base for that. ( For me, it's warm weather Saucer wax then, with their warm temp race overlay, "White Noise, " most days. Hooray!!)

By the way, one of the ski brands with the worst tunes at demos in the past few years was Stockli, some skis dangerously unskiable, or poorly done noticeably, at repeat demos, in ways that interfered with evaluation at times - up until they fixed this at the last SIA, last February, when folk(s) with a race and elite skier background, and maybe top rep(s) from Europe also, took over and seemed to make sure that things were done with more attention to hands on detail. Wow. But I have no idea exactly what processes they went through - with the big machines/shops or not. I just know they were having the same sort of breakdowns I'm speaking of up until they really honed in on things with a few top, skillful people, seemed like - fairly recently.

 

[Tricia]

By the way, one of the ski brands with the worst tunes at demos in the past few years was Stöckli, some skis dangerously unskiable, or poorly done noticeably, at repeat demos, in ways that interfered with evaluation at times - up until they fixed this at the last SIA, last February, when folk(s) with a race and elite skier background, and maybe top rep(s) from Europe also, took over and seemed to make sure that things were done with more attention to hands on detail. Wow. But I have no idea exactly what processes they went through - with the big machines/shops or not. I just know they were having the same sort of breakdowns I'm speaking of up until they really honed in on things with a few top, skillful people, seemed like - fairly recently.

Funny, but a couple of the premium brands had questionable tunes over the years. One thing I'd like to point out is that we've been at SIA/WWSRA demos at Copper/WP, Snowbasin, Mammoth and Waterville Valley.
The tunes that @LindseyB puts on his skis at the Snowbasin demo are incredible.
Always have to give a hats off to those who are stepping up.

 

[Erik Timmerman]

Funny, but a couple of the premium brands had questionable tunes over the years.

You are not kidding. Worse tunes than I've ever had from any shop.

 

[Tricia]

You are not kidding. Worse tunes than I've ever had from any shop.

Our reps are putting on private demos for shops and media in Tahoe with scheduled days of the week that certain reps show up at the mountain.
A few weeks ago I had two "marginal" tunes from one rep, both of which I addressed with him.
One ski was a 93 waisted ski that was way too grabby and needed to have the base bevel addressed.
The other ski from the same rep felt like it had been skied a ton and had no edges left.

Meanwhile I skied on a couple other brands and knew immediately that the rep himself hand tuned the skis.
When I went back to the rep I asked about the tunes, both of which confirmed that they personally hand tune or touch up the skis that go out on snow every day.


IIRC Marc Sheehan had some of the best tunes at the Stowe @SkiEssentials demo a few years ago.

 

[Choucas]

Is there a valid reason why any rep would put out a demo ski with anything other than a flawless hand tune? It’s your only chance to make a great first impression. I know it’s a ton of work to manage dozens of skis. But getting it right makes the sales job a whole lot easier.

 

[James]

Completely agree James. The shop I go to hand finishes everything, so if there ever was an issue with their machine you would never know. That said the fellow who runs the shop has been tuning skis for decades and really knows his stuff. Their operation is not a set it and forget process which I fear some some shops have become. So great tuned edge with a flat well structured basis is a recipe for success in my books and that is what I get with every tune from them.

That’s not close to the norm.
Do you know their checking procedure after coming out of the machine?

 

[Tricia]

Is there a valid reason why any rep would put out a demo ski with anything other than a flawless hand tune? It’s your only chance to make a great first impression. I know it’s a ton of work to manage dozens of skis. But getting it right makes the sales job a whole lot easier.

First of all, let me say that many manufacturers who are showing up at the trade shows are getting the skis pretty close to the opening of demo if not during the demo. In some of these cases, they may not have the time or facilities to put a full tune on the skis.
There are some manufacturers who will literally stay up all night to get them right and some who (frankly) trust the factory tune.
There are a plethora of reasons that tunes are off..... more soon.
Meanwhile take a look at @Philpug article on the things to consider while demoing a ski.

What Does It Take To Demo a Ski Properly?

I cannot count how many times it has been posted here, there, and everywhere: You must DEMO DEMO DEMO DEMO before you buy. So, what can you learn from demoing a ski? Well, let's talk about what it takes to demo skis properly. “If you don’t know...

www.skitalk.com

 

[Erik Timmerman]

First of all, let me say that many manufacturers who are showing up at the trade shows are getting the skis pretty close to the opening of demo if not during the demo. In some of these cases, they may not have the time or facilities to put a full tune on the skis.
There are some manufacturers who will literally stay up all night to get them right and some who (frankly) trust the factory tune.
There are a plethora of reasons that tunes are off..... more soon.
Meanwhile take a look at @Philpug article on the things to consider while demoing a ski.

https://www.SkiTalk.com/ams/what-does-it-take-to-demo-a-ski-properly.47/

If you ask me, all manufacturers should just rip the plastic off the skis and then put them on the snow for demo. That's what the consumer is buying.

 

[Scruffy]

First of all, let me say that many manufacturers who are showing up at the trade shows are getting the skis pretty close to the opening of demo if not during the demo. In some of these cases, they may not have the time or facilities to put a full tune on the skis.

Ok, a good reason not to blame the boots on the ground demo team, but not a good excuse for the mfgs. If the manufacturers cared to, they could fix that, no? Don't they know ahead of time that there will be these on snow trade shows and other demo opportunities to show off their product? Wouldn't they want to make the best first impression? Seems to me that if the corp. powers that be wanted to fix this, they could.

 

[Tricia]

If you ask me, all manufacturers should just rip the plastic off the skis and then put them on the snow for demo. That's what the consumer is buying.

Well, there is that.
The percentage of shops who have staff knowledgeable enough to advise the new ski buyer that the ski may need a tune out of the box is pretty small.
And really, when you get a new car, do you expect to take it to someone to get it road worthy?

 

[dovski]

That’s not close to the norm.
Do you know their checking procedure after coming out of the machine?

They manually check bevel and hand tune the edge if needed to ensure everything is correct - typically though their machine is pretty accurate. For race tunes the do the edge entirely by hand and just use the machine for the grind and structure. My point is they have manual quality control measure in place, so while they use the machine they do not rely on it to ensure you get a great tune.

 

[James]

My point is they have manual quality control measure in place, so while they use the machine they do not rely on it to ensure you get a great tune.

Unfortunately, shops aren’t spending $300k+ to increase their tuning labor. It’s a real predicament the industry has gotten itself into. Incredibly expensive machines that promise reduced labor time, but then need labor to go over the output to make it decent.

We come back to these expensive machines having no internal feedback. The machine automated the process, but the results of that process could be poor.

 

[dovski]

Unfortunately, shops aren’t spending $300k+ to increase their tuning labor. It’s a real predicament the industry has gotten itself into. Incredibly expensive machines that promise reduced labor time, but then need labor to go over the output to make it decent.

We come back to these expensive machines having no internal feedback. The machine automated the process, but the results of that process could be poor.

James completely agree and feel lucky to have such a good shop close by to do my tunes. I know the fellow who runs the tune shop and he is pretty anal about getting things perfect. Once they put the wrong structure on my skis, which really is not that big a deal, but he caught before I got there and comped my tune.

The other place in the Seattle area that does great tunes is https://crossonski.com/. They call out their tunes as a differentiator for their skis and give you 2 years free tuning with the purchase of a new pair. They have the really really expensive Montana but also have a lot of manual quality control.

The reality is that many places do a very poor job tuning skis which is why many of us do our own. Completely agree that automated machines make it easy for shops to ignore the entire process and nothing good comes from that.

The same way you need a great bootfitter to fit and modify your boots, you need a great tech to tune your skis, regardless of the tools they use.

 

[James]

The reality is that many places do a very poor job tuning skis which is why many of us do our own.

The people telling these tales all tune their own or have done it for many years in the past. This is not a “tune it yourself” fix. It’s a very serious issue in the industry which it doesn’t seem to care about.

No one I know has a stone grinder. The only person I know who flattens skis by hand, kind of, is Jacques. But, I don’t know what that means when you need to takedown the base edges. The SkiVisions flattener will take off metal with it’s HighSpeedSteel blade. But doing that on the whole ski is questionable, and that tool is not easy to use in that mode.

As it stands now, I really only know one place in the East that is as close to 100% reliable as you can get. However, he has the odd process of removing everything off the ski first. Bindings, plates, tip protectors. So that adds it’s own issues.

 

[mdf]

As it stands now, I really only know one place in the East that is as close to 100% reliable as you can get. However, he has the odd process of removing everything off the ski first. Bindings, plates, tip protectors. So that adds it’s own issues.

I thought I read somewhere that he quit doing that.

edit -- nope, his web site still says his process "removes all appendages".

 

[James]

I thought I read somewhere that he quit doing that.

I thought so too, but I went and looked at his site. Still saying he does it.
He uses this machine for grinding. (Start Haus was selling a used one last fall for $55k. So that gives an idea of the investment in even a computer controlled manual machine)

Wintersteiger Omega RS350

Omega RS 350

The racing stone grinding machine for skis, snowboards and cross country skis.

www.wintersteiger.com

 

[dovski]

The people telling these tales all tune their own or have done it for many years in the past. This is not a “tune it yourself” fix. It’s a very serious issue in the industry which it doesn’t seem to care about.

No one I know has a stone grinder. The only person I know who flattens skis by hand, kind of, is Jacques. But, I don’t know what that means when you need to takedown the base edges. The SkiVisions flattener will take off metal with it’s HighSpeedSteel blade. But doing that on the whole ski is questionable, and that tool is not easy to use in that mode.

As it stands now, I really only know one place in the East that is as close to 100% reliable as you can get. However, he has the odd process of removing everything off the ski first. Bindings, plates, tip protectors. So that adds it’s own issues.

I agree James, home tuning is limited to really waxing, sharpening/polishing the edges and basic ptex repair for me. I experimented with the SkiVisions tool and still use it occasionally but never on the whole ski, usually just to flatten a small area after a Ptex repair, its blade is much sharper than my metal scraper and is great for the final pass.

I think the real issue we are encountering is the fact that the average skier does not really wax or maintain their skis let alone care, so why should a lot of these shops who service the average skier. Many do not know the difference between a good tune, bad tune or no tune. A good friend of mine joined me for a day of skiing a few weeks back and after the first run said his skis did not work. Turns he had not waxed let alone tuned his skis in over a year or two. He was amazed what a simple coat of wax and hand sharpen did, at the same time the thought of paying $50+ for a full tune was a non starter for him. Not to worry I told him that the next version of Phantom DPS rolls out will eliminate the need for tuning, waxing and edging ... and that the version after that will simply eliminate the need for skis altogether