Suffering

[TheArchitect]

I read this thread yesterday and today this shows up on my YouTube home page. Strange.

 

[Tricia]

Are you wondering where the Lions are?

Africa?

New Hampshire's Mt. Washington (highest peak in the Northeast) has a road to the top -- it's something like an average 12% grade for 7.6 miles.

Once or twice a year they let the truly stupid try to ride to the top. I did it twice, back in 2000 and 2001. I was told at the time that "you can suffer through anything for 90 minutes" which pretty much sums up the event. The event isn't fun and the training for the event isn't fun either.

After doing it twice, I wised up (I'm a slow learner) and have had no interest in trying it a third time. There's no shortage of short, steep hills around central Massachusetts. I don't have my bike geared low enough to just spin up a 10%+ grade and if I did I wouldn't mentally tolerate the pace that such gearing would entail. So I guess I still "suffer" to some degree, occasionally, on the bike, but I seem to be able to maintain my fitness goals (modest as they may be) while still enjoying the vast majority of my pedaling miles.

The take aways I got from this...

I was told at the time that "you can suffer through anything for 90 minutes" which pretty much sums up the event. The event isn't fun and the training for the event isn't fun either.

And...

After doing it twice, I wised up (I'm a slow learner)

I would put an emoji here but I wouldn't know where to start.

 

[scott43]

I think Tuna is Machiavelli, by the way.

Are you saying Tuna means the buzzards represent the necessity of suffering in life? He summoned the buzzards? Or....he IS the buzzards!!!????

 

[Tony S]

Africa?

 

[Wendy]

Without trying to sound like a philosopher in a cycling thread, what does “suffering” mean in the context of bike riding? We may all have different perspectives on what it is.

For me, it’s not lactic acid burn, or being out of breath.That’s a normal part of a hard ride.

It’s being freezing cold and wet and hungry with miles to go and nothing in the tank, or being hot and dehydrated with not enough water. It’s when I know I need to stop and make a phone call and get a ride home. (Hasn’t happened in years because I do everything to avoid it)!

 

[AmyPJ]

This may be the case with riding but I know you've had the "I can't" feeling in other activities.

Out of fear, and boots not fitting and therefore my equipment not performing predictably. Nothing to do with the physical work involved. I've always said the difference for me in MTB is that I can hop off the bike on sections that scare me, walk them then hop back on. I can't do that on skis. On the MTB, I can session sections that challenge me mentally until I can ride them. (Sometimes I do, sometimes I don't.) There is a level of extreme satisfaction for me that comes from pushing up some climbs on the bike where I want to quit so many times because I'm gassed, but don't. Fear is not a factor in those cases, just determination and in some cases, fitness level.

The road from my place in Utah climbs 3K’ in 5 miles to Powder Mountain with an average 14% grade. I ride it occasionally if I’m feeling guilty about being too lazy. I call it The Martyr Ride, nothing fun about it. Did it once on my road bike and was so afraid that I would blow a tire from overheating the rims on the way down that I said never again, I use my mountain bike with disc brakes.
It was the finish for a stage on the tour of Utah a few years ago, those guys do it in about half the time as me & probably enjoy it at the end of a 100+ mile day in the middle of summer. One man’s suffering is another’s joy.
View attachment 135059

I know the high school MTB teams use that as a training climb. I'd NOT want to climb that on a MTB. It's long enough in a car!

 

[cantunamunch]

No definition of suffering will be adequate to the job if we keep misapplying 'fun'.

Reductio: Someone who doesn't have fun at all cycling can still do it for sport. At which point every part of everything they do can go under the 'suffering' umbrella - there is no pleasant portion of it. Doing something unpleasant over and over again to considerable expense, to fatigue and exhaustion and pain, is suffering through it. By anyone's definition of suffering.

Phrased another way: you're not doing it for sport until you push it outside your fun zone. If you don't push that hard, you're doing it for fun. Sport proper starts when the fun stops.

It’s being freezing cold and wet and hungry with miles to go and nothing in the tank, or being hot and dehydrated with not enough water. It’s when I know I need to stop and make a phone call and get a ride home. (Hasn’t happened in years because I do everything to avoid it)!

Ever had the thing where your thigh muscles are too cold while your core, hands and feet are fine? To the point where they cramp up into useless blocks the moment you try to go over 40-50 rpm? Super weird.

 

[martyg]

For me, it’s not lactic acid burn, ...

Its not "lactic acid burn" for me, or anyone else, really. Because there is no such thing.

 

[skibob]

No definition of suffering will be adequate to the job if we keep misapplying 'fun'.

Reductio: Someone who doesn't have fun at all cycling can still do it for sport. At which point every part of everything they do can go under the 'suffering' umbrella - there is no pleasant portion of it. Doing something unpleasant over and over again to considerable expense, to fatigue and exhaustion and pain, is suffering through it. By anyone's definition of suffering.

Phrased another way: you're not doing it for sport until you push it outside your fun zone. If you don't push that hard, you're doing it for fun. Sport proper starts when the fun stops.



Ever had the thing where your thigh muscles are too cold while your core, hands and feet are fine? To the point where they cramp up into useless blocks the moment you try to go over 40-50 rpm? Super weird.

^^^Yes, but my calves, not my thighs. For calves it helps to get off the bike, walk around and stretch them. Not sure if thighs would be as easy to work out.

 

[Philpug]

Reductio: Someone who doesn't have fun at all cycling can still do it for sport. At which point every part of everything they do can go under the 'suffering' umbrella - there is no pleasant portion of it. Doing something unpleasant over and over again to considerable expense, to fatigue and exhaustion and pain, is suffering through it. By anyone's definition of suffering.

Phrased another way: you're not doing it for sport until you push it outside your fun zone. If you don't push that hard, you're doing it for fun. Sport proper starts when the fun stops.

So, if someone bikes (or skis) very well and efficiently and is having fun doing it, it is no longer considered sport?

 

[Tricia]

Efficiency is a whole different ball game with me and cycling. I know I'm not efficient.

 

[Lauren]

No definition of suffering will be adequate to the job if we keep misapplying 'fun'.

A little help for anyone misapplying fun.

Source: Semi-Rad: 10 Questions to Ask "Was It Fun, or 'Fun'?" - REI Co-op Journal

 

[Wendy]

So, if someone bikes (or skis) very well and efficiently and is having fun doing it, it is no longer considered sport?

Semantics. If one equates “sport” with competition, or obtaining a personal best, there’s going to be some amount of “suffering” involved either in the preparation and/or in the event itself. If one equates “sport” with physical activity for enjoyment, then no “suffering” needed.

It all depends on what goals one sets. It’s an individual preference. No one should judge the other.

 

[Wendy]

A little help for anyone misapplying fun.

View attachment 135100

Source: Semi-Rad: 10 Questions to Ask "Was It Fun, or 'Fun'?" - REI Co-op Journal

I’ve got at least 3 instances of “fun” according to that flow chart.

 

[Wendy]

Efficiency is a whole different ball game with me and cycling. I know I'm not efficient.

You don’t have to be efficient to have fun.
Tour de France cyclists are some of the most efficient on the planet. They experience a lot of suffering.

 

[cantunamunch]

So, if someone bikes (or skis) very well and efficiently and is having fun doing it, it is no longer considered sport?

No. It's considered fun.

And the proof is everyone who has ever said "It must be fun or they wouldn't keep doing it".


Can't have it both ways unless you make sport and fun identical.

 

[Wendy]

Out of fear, and boots not fitting and therefore my equipment not performing predictably. Nothing to do with the physical work involved. I've always said the difference for me in MTB is that I can hop off the bike on sections that scare me, walk them then hop back on. I can't do that on skis. On the MTB, I can session sections that challenge me mentally until I can ride them. (Sometimes I do, sometimes I don't.) There is a level of extreme satisfaction for me that comes from pushing up some climbs on the bike where I want to quit so many times because I'm gassed, but don't. Fear is not a factor in those cases, just determination and in some cases, fitness level.

You could’ve taken these words right out of my mouth!

 

[cantunamunch]

^^^Yes, but my calves, not my thighs. For calves it helps to get off the bike, walk around and stretch them. Not sure if thighs would be as easy to work out.

Yeh, tried that - stopping every 2 miles with 35+ to go and temps dropping fast wasn't optimal for the rest of the body or for getting there.

The funny thing is that episode finally enabled me to understand the connection between secondary engine balance (yep, the inline-4 engine kind) and eccentric bike chainrings.

*shrug* The fun was in the thinking. The rest was pure sport.

 

[Wendy]

Its not "lactic acid burn" for me, or anyone else, really. Because there is no such thing.

???
Anaerobic exercise “burns” glycogen, so glycolysis creates lactic acid when the body isn’t getting enough oxygen during intense exercise.
Lactic acid flushed out pretty quickly though as soon as the body gets enough oxygen to revert to aerobic respiration.
The muscle burn and soreness afterwards is not due to lactic acid, no, but to changes in the muscle fiber.

I’m not sure why you state otherwise.

 

[Wendy]

[

Ever had the thing where your thigh muscles are too cold while your core, hands and feet are fine? To the point where they cramp up into useless blocks the moment you try to go over 40-50 rpm? Super weird.

That’s happened to me on long winter runs. It’s creepy. Warming them back up after returning home takes awhile, too.