SureFoot Liners and Boot Question

[Jersey Skier]

Not to derail but to all the people not using the ZipFit strap, what's it's purpose if no one needs it? I've kept it to take up space with my skinny legs.

 

[givethepigeye]

^^^^This is gold. Well said, @givethepigeye. Hope our paths can cross, I’ll buy the beer, Manhattans, etc.

Some day, and I’ll get the second round. I owe you for those MX83 rockets..

 

[givethepigeye]

Not to derail but to all the people not using the ZipFit strap, what's it's purpose if no one needs it? I've kept it to take up space with my skinny legs.

^ you hit it. Also to neatly fold up your laces I guess. or maybe if you ski with your boots unbuckle.

 

[cantunamunch]

Not to derail but to all the people not using the ZipFit strap, what's it's purpose if no one needs it? I've kept it to take up space with my skinny legs.

Helps keep the tongue centered for those who *don't* run a Booster inside the shell - or those with spiny/bony shins- or those with calf swell just above the boot.

There's a great pic in another thread where OP with large calf volume just above the shell is actually pulling the tongue out of the (different brand) liner with every boot flex.

 

[givethepigeye]

Actually the ZipFit tongue is asymmetrical - more to the inside, but get what you are saying. I don’t run my booster on the inside, tongue doesn’t move. 2 fingers tight on top buckle. Tighter on next one down, rarely buckle the other two across instep and toe unless powder day to keep snow out.

tomato / tomatoe - do what works.

 

[USCskibum]

@USCskibum - I don’t use that Velcro strap either. You dont need it.

on the other stuff…I personally have been through the Surefoot deal, have used stock liners, have had a “well known“ boot guy do foam injected liners and now on my second pair of ZipFit. Also have a bit of a odd foot shape, not crazy, but different.

Surefoot - look, it’s a business, a formula - are there good people there? Sure, but you need to know “who” and “where”. Likely you will be in too big a shell and they will not really dig in on what shell you should be in + you will need to buy their crappy footbeds. Also, I found thsir liners very cold. I have had them do work to my shells ie. adding rubber soles to replace the solid lifters on my RS130s when another “boot specialist” could not be bothered with such a task. So, no axe to grind with them at all. Just go in eyes wide open.

Foamed Liners - made an appointment, flew across county, he f’d them up (only person in the store at the time, then got busy, wasn’t paying attention). Tried to fix by grinding my shells vs redoing them. Disaster, ended up throwing away and didn’t even get my $ back. Lesson learned. Caveat Emptor. “supposed expert”.

Stock Liners - if you are in the “right shell” these will be fine for 30-50 or more days. So, find the the “right” boot fitter, preferably at the bottom of 4k of vert, where you ski often and can stop by and tweak. Any amount you pay will be worth it, once you are in the right shell for your skiing and foot.

THEN….when your liners pack out, replace with ZipFits. Trying to throw $s at it with multiple variables (shell/liner/fitter) is a long miserable road. <- ask me how I know.

The right shell will set you free. Then buy a back-up.

just my $0.02

THANKS for taking the time to respond!!!

I would like to think that the existing shell and size is a good fit, based upon the time the boot fitter took to look at how my actual foot fit within the shell compared to a couple other options. AND, now knowing SureFoot’s processing for fitting a shell really isn’t an exact fit.

So now, I just need to figure out the inside parts to keep my toes and ball of foot happy!

My initial thought and purpose of asking the original question was to possibly have SureFoot provide liners only in my existing shells. Seemed like they would do this based upon my initial questions. I’ve had a few buddies go the SureFoot route and based upon the input around here, I would agree that their model seems to be to size up and fill up with foam, unless you are knowledgeable enough to know otherwise. Seems like most of the SureFoot guys will do whatever you want without taking the time to really understand your needs.

Would like to give the ZipFit’s a try, BUT with a boot fitter’s input and one knowledgeable enough to know right from wrong. Any idea what a “GOOD” boot fitters process would be or is for setting up and molding the ZipFit liner for you? What should I look for (I.e. experience) in a boot fitter for ZipFits?

 

[givethepigeye]

@USCskibum - my foot is +285 and I am in a 27.5 Lange RS easily. I could likely get in a 26.5 with some work

how do you know you are in the right shell shape? A Lange fits different than a Tecnica/Nordica in the same 27.5

Sorry, not the be rude, but how much do you ski and what/where do you ski?

how tight are your buckles

do you have footbeds

how do your feet respond to “tension”

what type of socks do you wear

have you tried pantyhose

^ all of these q’s a competent boot fitter should ask/observe/have you try.

seriously, as good zipfits are, there/they is NOT a magic bullet to solve for the wrong shell. Meaning if your boot doesn’t work with the stock liner a ZipFit isnt going to fix it.

if your car is a POS, new tires doesn’t magically fix engine.

 

[cantunamunch]

What should I look for (I.e. experience) in a boot fitter for ZipFits?

Pretty much the same as for anything else - evaluation , stabilization, then liner work.

 

[USCskibum]

@USCskibum - my foot is +285 and I am in a 27.5 Lange RS easily. I could likely get in a 26.5 with some work

how do you know you are in the right shell shape? A Lange fits different than a Tecnica/Nordica in the same 27.5

Sorry, not the be rude, but how much do you ski and what/where do you ski?

how tight are your buckles

do you have footbeds

how do your feet respond to “tension”

what type of socks do you wear

have you tried pantyhose

^ all of these q’s a competent boot fitter should ask/observe/have you try.

seriously, as good zipfits are, there/they is NOT a magic bullet to solve for the wrong shell. Meaning if your boot doesn’t work with the stock liner a ZipFit isnt going to fix it.

if your car is a POS, new tires doesn’t magically fix engine.

I know I’m not going to get the “perfect” fit here, but trying to ask all the questions I can so that I am better prepared the next time I try to resolve boot issues on the mountain with a fitter, rather than just being sold product.

1). Typically ski 10-15 days a season between Mammoth and Park City.

2). Buckles are loose on the mid foot/toes just enough tension to keep the buckle down. Top buckles are “medium” not too tight but not loose, enough to get a “click”, but definitely not clamping down with force. In my experience, tension across the mid foot and toes causes issues, tingling and discomfort.

3). I have a pair of Sidas footbeds that were “fitted” with the Lange RX boots. I guess “semi-custom” moldable???

4). Typically wear a pair of SmartWool compression ski socks (thin).

I have a higher than “average” arch and mid foot…at least this is what a couple fitters/shops have identified. IF, the Lange shells are a more snug fit with their stock liner, do ZipFits usually take up more volume over a stock foam liner in either the mid foot or ankle area or both?

 

[cantunamunch]

I know I’m not going to get the “perfect” fit here, but trying to ask all the questions I can so that I am better prepared the next time I try to resolve boot issues on the mountain with a fitter, rather than just being sold product.

If you have a good fitter, the only way for you to be better prepared is to be more in tune with your sensations during the fitting session, and to more clearly communicate them to the fitter.

If you don't, nothing you learn here will help. Sorry, but that's how it is.

do ZipFits usually take up more volume over a stock foam liner in either the mid foot or ankle area or both?

No - BUT with those characteristics you will have higher than usual difficulty and a higher than usual contortion level in getting your laced-up Zipfits-and-feet into and out of the shell.

 

[givethepigeye]

@USCskibum - Zipfits take up whatever space you need - from super tight race fits to recreational. You just add cork. Gara’s are the thinnest “race fit” liners. Think 2 sizes smaller than you measure. Seriously, not trying to be a @#$&, but go get your boots/fit sorted. It may take several days with actual skiing involved between visits. This isn’t getting fixed by random people over the interwebs.

I’m not a boot fitter, but those are the types of questions I would want whomever was sorting my boots to ask, did they stick your foot in the shell, with no liner to check the actual shell fit and how it relates to your anatomy? If not, walk out.

There are well known boot people in both Park City and Mammoth that can deal with it. Check around on here and you will find several recommended people.

hope things get sorted for you, its a “process“ sometimes and why people don’t like the drill. Start with a shell that works 95-99% w/ stock liner.

 

[wyowindrunner]

Looking at going the SureFoot route after struggling to get a good fit from previous boot fitter(s)/shops.

Gotta put 2 cents in here. Have had Surefoot Boots for last 21-22 years. Guys didn't stick me in just anything (Lange) One pair of Salomons and two Technicas. The older foam liners were hard and cold. The POM memory foam liners are not. My last boots, liners were not good! Hot spots and pain! Why? Don't really know. Took pics of feet showing the places- (visible redness). Guys did some work on them- went out and skied rest of day- A little better but still had a couple issues. Went back in the next morning and they said ok, lets try again. They junked the old liners and got a new set- second time was the charm. No whining or sidestepping, just let's get 'er. Don't know what the magic was but whatever they did worked. This was at the shop in Sun Valley. I have pretty average feet fairly high arches with no problems other than some achilles swelling from running from time to time.-the channel from the foam in the old hard liners were a little painful when this would occur. Skied with an instructor years ago who swore by them. She would go to Colorado to get new boots when needed. I know there are a lot of stories 180 degrees apart from this but there has to be a lot of satisfied people or they would not have been around this long.

 

[coops]

Not to derail but to all the people not using the ZipFit strap, what's it's purpose if no one needs it? I've kept it to take up space with my skinny legs.

I do use the Zipfit strap... and don't bother with my Atomic boots' booster straps. One finger tight on the top two boot clips.

Thought about just removing the original boot booster straps, but kept them for now as they're useful for 'sticking' together when you want to sling the boots over your shoulder and carry to a store.

I once had a pair of Surefoot boots.

 

[givethepigeye]

Gotta put 2 cents in here. Have had Surefoot Boots for last 21-22 years. Guys didn't stick me in just anything (Lange) One pair of Salomons and two Technicas. The older foam liners were hard and cold. The POM memory foam liners are not. My last boots, liners were not good! Hot spots and pain! Why? Don't really know. Took pics of feet showing the places- (visible redness). Guys did some work on them- went out and skied rest of day- A little better but still had a couple issues. Went back in the next morning and they said ok, lets try again. They junked the old liners and got a new set- second time was the charm. No whining or sidestepping, just let's get 'er. Don't know what the magic was but whatever they did worked. This was at the shop in Sun Valley. I have pretty average feet fairly high arches with no problems other than some achilles swelling from running from time to time.-the channel from the foam in the old hard liners were a little painful when this would occur. Skied with an instructor years ago who swore by them. She would go to Colorado to get new boots when needed. I know there are a lot of stories 180 degrees apart from this but there has to be a lot of satisfied people or they would not have been around this long.

When I had them and had issues - the shop in SV sorted it - w/o any problem or crab walking. Ultimately I was in the wrong shell (Lange Banshee) - but now I know and as long as I was going to use a RS shell and didn’t need to buy a footbed - I might take a flyer, but have ZipFits that are fine.

 

[Roby lukens]

My two cents. I've been in Surefoot liners for 20 years now. I am on my 3rd set now in two different shells. Until last year, I normally get 40-50 days in a year. I have had my shells foamed at three different shops (NYC, Kiliington and Steamboat). All good experiences except once when they foamed the boot too tight. They refoamed them no problem. My one caveat is that I get my shells sized and canted etc. by an excellent boot fitter in NH so I know the shells are the right size for my foot and set up properly (my first liners went into shells that i had already so my liners are out of sinc with my shells). I will certainly never ski in stock liners again. Good luck. Nothing is better than skiing in well fitting boots.

 

[charlier]

I'm just going to shoot straight on this and say take our advice for what it's worth (a bunch of people on a ski forum), but there is almost never a case where someone with your foot length should be in a size 28 shell. Honestly, that's a lazy salesman taking the easy way out and it will most likely not result in happiness for you when it comes to the comfort and performance of your ski boots. A boot shell that's too big is not a comfortable boot when actually skiing in it.

You now have the advice of two professional boot fitters and a couple serious long time skiers. I hope you seriously give it consideration.

A third professional boot fitter opinion

I'm just going to shoot straight on this and say take our advice for what it's worth (a bunch of people on a ski forum), but there is almost never a case where someone with your foot length should be in a size 28 shell. Honestly, that's a lazy salesman taking the easy way out and it will most likely not result in happiness for you when it comes to the comfort and performance of your ski boots. A boot shell that's too big is not a comfortable boot when actually skiing in it.

You now have the advice of two professional boot fitters and a couple serious long time skiers. I hope you seriously give it consideration.

Yet another opinion from a professional boot fitter. First, it’s hard to comment on “your” feet, but given your measurements, I would put you in a 27.5 boot. I rarely use terms such - aggressive fit or comfort fit, I just tell the customer, this is the best fit for your style and type of skiing. Assuming that you ski more than a few times a year and venture past the easiest runs, I would almost never put you in a size 28.5 shell. As Noodler suggested, with three pro boot fitters and some very experienced and serious skiers, serious consider a 27.5 shell size.

 

[silverback]

4). Typically wear a pair of SmartWool compression ski socks (thin).

I’ve tried a couple of “thin” compression socks. They are always too thick. Can you try to find some thinner, non-compression socks to try? Have you tried pantyhose?

 

[WadeHoliday]

My two cents. I've been in Surefoot liners for 20 years now. I am on my 3rd set now in two different shells. Until last year, I normally get 40-50 days in a year. I have had my shells foamed at three different shops (NYC, Kiliington and Steamboat). All good experiences except once when they foamed the boot too tight. They refoamed them no problem. My one caveat is that I get my shells sized and canted etc. by an excellent boot fitter in NH so I know the shells are the right size for my foot and set up properly (my first liners went into shells that i had already so my liners are out of sinc with my shells). I will certainly never ski in stock liners again. Good luck. Nothing is better than skiing in well fitting boots.

I wanted to add to this, as I have had a couple of very positive experiences with Surefoot in the last couple of weeks,
and,
I have worked with a few great bootfitters, many who have been active on this site.
Jim Schaffner did my bootfitting out of his workshop for years before opening the start haus, and is great and highly regarded, I've worked with Bud Heisman, also a great bootfitter and on this site, as well as Phil Pugliese, less time in the game than the aforementioned gents, but knows his trade very well. So, I know what a good fitter can do, and believe they are key to enjoying this sport!

Looking at the comments here about oversizing boots, I can say,
I don't have an oversized boot,
I ski in a 93mm Atomic race "plug" that had treated me amazingly well for last season and half, but I have a joint in my instep that is sensitive, hurts a lot and is a magnet for the hellish gout attack if I tweak it while drinking too much red wine and if work is stressful, so I started this season needing work. Start haus was a month out, so I went into what was EliteFeet at Northstar, as it's a good location for me, but, they are no longer there, SureFoot took over the location.
I brought my hotbag in with my boots and liners separate, of course, and first look from and employee, I got a look that said "what's with this guy?" Grey hair, bright red plugs and lace up liners... hum..?

then the manager came out, took a look at what was happening, and I gave him my foot history.. then he took them back "behind the curtain", and after 15 min came back out, and whew, much better. Professional, timely, good listening, great skill set for dialing in a boot for a picky old skier who's highly sensitive to fit/feel and performance of these darn plastic shoes.

And while they are better, I was definitely intrigued with their new foam process, memory foam like. I checked out a finished one, and liked how it felt a bit more pliable than foam I've had in the past. I also liked that right on the heel it didn't fill with foam, as I don't have any length to work with, and it had a foam tongue. So, after the positive boot tweak and discussing their new R liner, designed for very low volume applications, I decided to give them a shot, scary for sure, change in boots is.
and,
After a day, and skiing back to back and even time with stock/surefoot foam on each foot, these liners are great. They are precise, but cozy, and out-ski the stock liner for sure. Just a couple hours, and I'll have tweaks as I break them in, but first impression is great. the fit is more precise and tighter than the stock, but also more cozy and consistent, while my problem spot is still more noticeable in the stock liner.

Anyway, I just wanted to share my positive experience, seem there are some negatives here, but as is the case with any shop or brand, not all bootfitters or employees are the same. Surefoot has a good product in their liner, and I found a bootfitter who knew how to make it work for me in a boot that is quite a boot fitters design.

Enjoy the snow!
Cheers!
Wade

 

[givethepigeye]

No need to get new liners as I am in the Zips but do they still mandate that you get a footbed from them in order to get foamed? Just curious.

 

[WadeHoliday]

No need to get new liners as I am in the Zips but do they still mandate that you get a footbed from them in order to get foamed? Just curious.

No, he wanted to look at mine, but said it looked great and would work in their liner.
cheers,
W