Tahoe Spring Wax

[SpeedyKevin]

Hey Jacques, what is the difference between fluorocarbon wax and fluorinated hydrocarbons?

I assume one was like PURE fluro while the other is more hydrocarbons but with a dash of fluro

 

[Jacques]

I assume one was like PURE fluro while the other is more hydrocarbons but with a dash of fluro

Yes. I tiny bit connected molecularly.

 

[Andy Mink]

I will say the Toko yellow spray on worked really well today. 2 hours without any appreciable loss of forward momentum.

 

[Paul Lutes]

Best application treatment/method for Toko yellow spray? Instructions are pretty minimal: apply, wait 30 minutes, polish.
Given the cost, I'm inclined to avoid any over spray, so will probably be spreading for complete coverage with a rag/paper towel/piece of toilet paper. Should the 30 minutes be a bake in direct sun for penetration?

 

[SpeedyKevin]

Best application treatment/method for Toko yellow spray? Instructions are pretty minimal: apply, wait 30 minutes, polish.
Given the cost, I'm inclined to avoid any over spray, so will probably be spreading for complete coverage with a rag/paper towel/piece of toilet paper. Should the 30 minutes be a bake in direct sun for penetration?

I have just been spraying the base, eat lunch, then take off! Works great! I'll polish it if i am doing a touch up at home.

Hasnt been difficult to spray the entire base in one go (96mm width ski)

 

[jt10000]

Fluorocarbon wax will prevent absorption of subsequent waxing, so that's what that's about.
Fluorinated hydrocarbons don't really have that effect, so I wouldn't get too worried about it.

I thought there are the same thing - waxes with fluorocarbon additives. Eg Swix LF and HF waxes (in the past).

Can you give an example of each if they are different?

 

[Paul Lutes]

I have just been spraying the base, eat lunch, then take off! Works great! I'll polish it if i am doing a touch up at home.

Hasnt been difficult to spray the entire base in one go (96mm width ski)

How many applications per can??

 

[Andy Mink]

How many applications per can??

We figured, I believe, between 15 and 20 pair depending on how slowly (heavy) you go over the skis. Once you get the hang of it you can get full coverage in a fairly quick pass. 100+ will take a bit more.

 

[Paul Lutes]

Thanks Andy - you da man!

 

[jt10000]

I assume one was like PURE fluro while the other is more hydrocarbons but with a dash of fluro

We should not use the word "wax" with pure fluoros.

 

[cantunamunch]

We should not use the word "wax" with pure fluoros.

Why not?

Honestly I don't get the point of all this linguistic wriggling and back-to-front usage specificity.

We know what a C6 and a C8 molecule is.
We know what a perfluorinated and partly fluorinated molecules are.


Beyond that, unless we want to get into actual chemistry, there's no point in drawing distinctions?
Shall we distinguish those with oxygen in the chain, like Zardoz had?
Shall we distinguish specific fatty acids/hardeners?

Especially since in any reasonably-priced product, the percentage-by-weight of either partly or per-fluorinated molecules is incredibly low.

 

[jt10000]

Why not?

Honestly I don't get the point of all this linguistic wriggling and back-to-front usage specificity.

The point is to avoid to confusion. Waxes are malleable when heated, and flow when melted, regardless of if they have fluoro in them.

Pure flouros don't melt/flow like and we just adhere them to the base or waxes on the base. Pure fluoros can "clog" bases as Jacques or someone pointed out, while using other words.

They are very different things in how they behave when we're applying them.

EDIT TO ADD: In these days when lots of stuff is being applied in liquid carries, the distinction may not be so important.

 

[MarkG]

Well after the fact, but I rocked that Toko Liquid Yellow Base Performance through til the 4th of July. It was great. I like to throw a Renew layer in on the skis every so often, so that may have been a contributing factor. But I've become a big fan of the Toko liquid, after reading (or was it watching a youtube) that Phil or Tricia did early season. (Big fan of the Dominator Renew, too...also thanks to Skitalk)

 

[cantunamunch]

Well after the fact, but I rocked that Toko Liquid Yellow Base Performance through til the 4th of July. It was great. I like to throw a Renew layer in on the skis every so often, so that may have been a contributing factor. But I've become a big fan of the Toko liquid, after reading (or was it watching a youtube) that Phil or Tricia did early season. (Big fan of the Dominator Renew, too...also thanks to Skitalk)

Good mix. What's your third wax (hard wax for high altitude new snow?)

 

[MarkG]

Same but with blue. I’m recreational. Don’t have a need for more. Only used toko liquid blue once but it seemed to do the trick.

…but I also enjoy tuning/waxing skis. Probably play with a zoom though it’s definitely overkill for my purposes.

 

[Philpug]

Review: - Toko Liquid Paraffin

For many, waxing and tuning skis surpasses basic maintenance; it is more of a religion. I do not proclaim myself a wax geek as some of our readers are. SkiTalk has dozens of skis in its test fleet, and maintaining them takes a tremendous amount...

www.skitalk.com

 

[RaceWax.com]

There are a lot of generalizations here being misapplied that are contributing to the confusion.

- a hydrocarbon wax molecule is typically a long chain (branched or straight) where all the carbons have hydrogen atoms attached. [BTW, as a point of interest, branched or straight is the basis for distinguishing how environmentally friendly a wax is. Branched hydrocarbons break down in the environment in 7 or so years. Straight chain hydrocarbons take more than 20 years. So eco waxes do not have to be plant based (e.g., Swix are not) and can provide the same performance and durability if they are branched rather than straight.]

- "pure fluoros" - these are compounds where all the hydrogen atoms in a carbon-based molecule are replaced by fluorine atoms.
--- an example of a long chain carbon backbone with all fluorine atoms is PTFE powder (basically powdered Teflon). It's impossible to get PTFE powder into your ski base without it being blended first into a hydrocarbon wax as the delivery system by the manufacturer. When racers use pure PTFE powder alone, they have typically corked it into a base that is already waxed, using friction to work it in to the existing hydrocarbon wax on the ski. PTFE will not clog your base because it never gets into your base as a coating in pure form. It is always dispersed on the surface wax. PTFE is always a solid; it will not melt. For the reasons stated, it will not clog your base.
--- Zardoz molecules are ethers, basically a carbon chain where some of the links in the linear chain are oxygen atoms; and all the carbons have fluorine attached ( a perfluoropolyalkylether). Unlike PTFE, this is a pure fluoro that is also a liquid. In addition it is polar. Wax is non-polar. So they don't mix. Zardoz will soak into the base and it will block hydrocarbon wax from entering the base pores. Adding non-polar wax will not displace the polar Zardoz liquid.

- fluoro waxes (like the old LF/HF's) are typically 95%+ hydrocarbon wax with a small amount of chain-carbon-backbone-type pure fluoros blended in. These are shorter chain fluoros, not PTFE, that can mix into the hydrocarbon wax. They will not clog your base. They are mostly plain old hydrocarbon wax. So technically these HF/LF waxes are a hybrid blend of fluoro and hydro.
[This next part is my opinion] I think most of the chatter about waxing/tuning with these HF/LF waxes is hearsay (what would have been called "wive's tales" in the pre-PC world). The wax has only a few % fluoro; when switching back to hydrocarbon waxes, give a HF-waxed base a few hot scrapes and there is near zero fluoro in the base. And the talk of having to use different brushes for HF waxes and hydro waxes is even worse. So if I use a brush to brush out some HF wax, it would have less than a gram of dust left on it. That dust is 95%+ non-fluoro hydrocarbon wax. Therefore only a trace part of the residual wax dust has fluoro. People would say that I shouldn't use this "HF" brush on my hydrocarbon waxed ski. I don't see how some residual wax dust with trace amounts of fluoro will get into your base from a brush that you are using to brush a hydrocarbon wax, and that is enough to influence your ski performance. Even if you assume ALL the dust that is stuck in the brush bristles somehow falls out. It's a great way to sell more brushes, but it makes no sense.

Hope this helps.
Marc