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Takeaways from the PSIA National Academy, 2022

JESinstr

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Why push?

Isn't it better to pull through with hip flexors?
I think more “slice” or as Armstrong says “stroke”.
Thinking is all well and good but what muscles engage / body parts move?

Why not just set the task of getting the skis "out and away"? I have found giving this task to my jr racers and advanced wannabees works quiet well in achieving the required body movements provided through the arch balance focus is maintained.
 

4ster

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Why push?

Isn't it better to pull through with hip flexors?
Certainly the hip flexors are engaged, a big part of keeping the CoM from being rocked out of balance. Not sure l follow “pulling through”?
Whether it is with students/athletes or myself l am trying to relate sensations that create a positive outcome. The only pulling I feel is pulling G’s ogwink .
 

James

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I think since it’s weighted it feels more like a push, but whatever, your body will figure it out.
It's called a force couple. Pull inside ski back, push outside ski forward, and they will hit an invisible force-field that prohibits them from passing each other. This is no tele turn. The tension between the two skis as they attempt unsuccessfully to pass each other is dramatic. Like trying to force two magnets together when they don't want to go.
I take it this is what you feel muscularly? There’s no force between the skis. Where does that come from?
 

LiquidFeet

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I take it this is what you feel muscularly? There’s no force between the skis. Where does that come from?
Yes, it's weird.

The action in question is similar to shuffling, but shuffling actually moves the outside foot forward of the inside foot and the inside foot backwards behind the outside foot. And vice versa.

This action I'm describing does not do that. It reduces the tip lead, but then the relative position of the feet stabilizes, as if the movement is stopped by a wall or a weird invisible force.

This force feels like the one that keeps two magnets from moving closer together. Sorry, this is hard to describe if you haven't experienced it.

I used to wonder why in a shuffle the feet passed each other, but when doing this movement they didn't. I worked on figuring this out one day. Here's what I discovered.

1. A shuffle involves sliding the feet and the entire legs above them back and forth, using the hip extendors and flexors. The legs move as units, back and forth. The outside knee moves forward of the inside knee while the inside knee moves back behind the outside knee - both happen simultaneously in a shuffle. The outside foot moves forward, passing inside foot, and the inside foot moves backwards relative to the outside foot to pass it. And vice versa, alternating. Feet and skis shuffle.

2. This movement in question, which I call a force-couple, doesn't involve using the hip extenders and flexors. It uses the hamstrings and quads instead. These muscles move the outside foot forward relative to the inside foot, and the inside foot backwards relative to the outside foot. But the knees don't move relative to each other. They stay where they are, with the outside knee behind the inside knee. When the quads and hams are activated to do this, the outside foot moves forward relative to the inside foot a little but but then refuses to pass it. The inside foot moves back relative to the outside foot a little, but then refuses to pass it. I like to use the words push and pull to describe this, but those are just words. I know "push" is forbidden, but in this case it seems like the right word to describe the forward slide of the outside foot. And "pull" works well for the slide of the inside foot. This skier feels the refusal of the feet to pass each other as a mysterious force. I can't explain it, but it happens reliably.

3. This muscular action creates a turn on flat skis. Amazing. This process works much like how a tank turns. Or a Snowcat. The physics term for this action is "force-couple."

@James, I don't know why it feels like there's a force stopping the feet from passing each other. Have you or anyone else reading here ever experienced this?

@4ster posted upthread "If we’ve been paying attention for the past 15yrs, most of us have heard mention of “Inside Foot Pullback” but not so much about sliding the outside foot forward. I like a little of each, kind of a telemark feeling. Gas pedal on the outside foot, gas off the inside." [Italics mine.]

I thought he was referring to this movement I'm describing. @4ster, was I wrong?
 
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4ster

Just because you can doesn’t mean you should!
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3. This muscular action creates a turn on flat skis. Amazing. This process works much like how a tank turns. Or a Snowcat. The physics term for this action is "force-couple."
I have a drill/task I do with kids in a narrow wedge I call tractor turns that I think fits right in with your description.

I thought he was referring to this movement I'm describing. @4ster, was I wrong?
edit: Probably No, I don’t think you are wrong. At least less like #1 (shuffling) & more like #2 where the feet & skis work in the longitudinal plane under the knees & the hips remain solid. Force Coupling is a new term for me but I think I get a sense of it.
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l do know there is a limit to how much one can slide the outside foot & ski forward before we end up back & inside.

You & @geepers have me trying to wrap my head around your descriptions & wanting to get on the snow for some experimentation but that won’t be till Fall for me. We’ll have to leave it to Geepers as it looks like Mt. Hotham opened today!

Thanks for the thought provocation :)
 
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LiquidFeet

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...
You & @geepers have me trying to wrap my head around your descriptions & wanting to get on the snow for some experimentation but that won’t be till Fall for me. We’ll have to leave it to Geepers as it looks like Mt. Hotham opened today!

Thanks for the thought provocation :)
Think of this movement as reducing tip lead by sliding each foot towards the other in the fore-aft plane. Just the feet, not the knees. All the action is below the knees.

That's all it is.
 

4ster

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Think of this movement as reducing tip lead by sliding each foot towards the other in the fore-aft plane. Just the feet, not the knees. All the action is below the knees.

That's all it is.
Yup, that aligns with my thinking. There are still balance & counter movements happening above but they are also subtle.

force-coupling :ogcool:
 

James

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Well supposedly if you have no friction in both dimensions under your feet, you can’t turn your legs relative to your pelvis. Like say with slippery shoes on a wet ice rink.
 

Sledhead

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Interesting discussion but that regarding facilitating movements without much if any (sorry, didn’t read entire thread) discussion regarding the accrual of the final output we seek to create and something I believe that is ultimately defined as ski to surface interaction outcome. While perhaps the best evidence of which is the tracks a skier will leave in the snow, that is not a very applicable visual aid for instruction yet, helpful to think about in terms of goal setting. Otherwise, we are instructing skiers to follow a map that has no destination. We are telling people how things should look rather than how things should respond. A very popular absence is often in regards to discussion around minimizing inside tip lead. Why is it important to keep both skis under your mass in fully carved turns? That is because we are trying to equally tip both skis which means equal bending, equal carving and equal tracking of both skis. With too much inside tip lead, we cannot pressure the inside ski. That is fine if your technique is to pressure and use only one ski (outside) at a time, a technique that is dated for the purposes of modern advanced carved turns. But, without a modicum of inside pressure, we have little control of what that inside ski is actually doing and in the case of no pressure, that means it is doing nothing but being a useless appendage that must be “reactivated” with each turn which is more sequential and less fluid. It also makes the BoS less quick and laterally mobile which is a limitation to the properties of separation we would seek to achieve in this type of turn.

Imagine for a moment only the mechanical input and output of the ski alone. Do we actually know how we would prefer to tip, pressure and coordinate a pair of skis? If your skis were magic and skied alone with nothing on them and you wanted to cast a spell on them with specific instructions for executing high performance dynamically carved turns, what would you specifically ask those skis to do? Do you want them to tip equally so they can bend equally so they can track equally? Do you want the fore to aft pressure migration equal but dominant to the outside? Do you want them lined up under you with little inside tip lead? Do you want a fluid pressure distribution through the skis from turn to turn? What is it you are specifically asking of the ski as a carving tool?

Now, let’s say you know exactly what you want from the ski, have cast the spell on them and off they go doing exactly what you instructed all by themselves and they make those beautifully round and dynamic arcs leaving the tracks we see forming under the skiers we seek to emulate. However, you are told one day that you will have to mount bindings and ride on top of these magically carving skis over which you will be able to exhibit no control. How is your body going to accommodate these movements of the ski? What are you going to do as the soles of your feet are forced to follow the radical tipping angles of both skis? What would you be planning on doing to stay on top of those skis so you do not end up being dragged to the bottom of the hill like a rag doll? How are you going to survive? Are you going to manage the relationship between your CoM and BoS in order to stay on top? What would that look like? Are you going to jump up and down, do a hula dance or moonwalk?

Now, imagining further along, let's hang your CoM on a long and winding coat rack that runs straight through the center line of your magically turning skis. What is your body doing to accommodate the differences between the upper path of the CoM and the lower path of the BoS? Is it going to flex, extend, rotate, incline and angulate the relationship between the CoM and BoS? Do you have the mobility to effectuate this accommodation of movement? Do you have to force these movements with muscular intervention (interference) or do you allow them to happen on their own accord? Will your musculoskeletal system accommodate these two externally forced paths or will it just break up and tear apart?

Luckily for us, our biomechanics were built for this kinetic path of movement required for accommodating the path differential of the CoM and BoS of an alpine skier. As a matter of fact, it is that specific kinetic path of movement allowed by our very particular human biomechanics that has invented these two paths taken over a pair of skis. It is the concept of skiing that developed out of these peculiar human elements of biomechanics. Especially in light of today’s contemporary technical freeskiing and the extreme mobility demonstrated between the CoM and BoS through the spine in large and small carved turns has likely reached its evolutionary limits (barring some unlikely new sort of ski design).

As we all know, due to the resulting complexities of melding physics, biomechanics and engineering in the conceptual discussion of ski technique, there are multitudes of ways to skin this cat. One of those ways is the “ski as a carving tool” concept. In this light, we base technique solely on the ski to snow interaction outcome we seek and as definitively represented by the tracks we leave in the snow. The ski is the carving tool and the terrain is what is being carved. Take a hand saw for instance: We all know how to use one. We all know that the goal is to be able to cut a piece of wood as accurately, quickly and effortlessly as possible. Between our wrists, elbows, shoulders and spine, the kinetic path used for sawing wood, we execute movements of flexion, extension, rotation, inclination and angulation as slight as some may be. We know that we use these movements and their adjustments to find a certain saw to wood interaction outcome that we feel with each pass of the saw. It is this interaction outcome we use to identify the change in movements we need. If we extend too aggressively, the blades slows to a crawl. If we flex too much, the blade will speed up but cut very little wood as a result. If we misalign the blade, things squeak to a stop. We will incline the blade over the cutting path to shorten or lengthen the cutting surface area when our cutting output does not meet our expectations. We will angulate and rotate our spine to find the most comfortable and effective path for our body and saw to do its job. Perhaps not quite as large and complex as the kinetic path we use for skiing but somewhat representative of the scope and outcome.

Now, I do like this description of “force-couple” which aligns with the idea that good skiing is a practice in managing a network tension (from opposing forces) throughout the entire kinetic chain and turn cycle. The biomechanical characteristics of the human musculoskeletal system offers a path of movement that relies both on closed chain stability and open chain mobility. Two stabilizing factors offered by our chain of movement is that we can never achieve more inside tipping or inside pull back beyond that of the position of the outside foot/shin. This is the main concept behind the benefits of inside tip lead whereby the outside follows. These are two small “walls” of stability that can be pushed against with a tension that will not be over applied. Typically a mechanical term, force coupling, as I understand it biomechanically, is when two muscles, tendons or ligaments provide opposing forces on either side of a joint whether for the above mentioned stability or mobility. I refer to this as that network of tension which further defines our kinetic path of movement that we use to find our way from one movement to the next.
 

geepers

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That is because we are trying to equally tip both skis which means equal bending, equal carving and equal tracking

Interesting discussion re equal tipping (sorry, didn’t read entire post). Do we really want to do that? How?
 

SkierGolferNH

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I was there too. First time at BS and was very impressed. I skied with Chris Fellows, also a legend. Fabulous week but they got another foot or so Friday night and I couldn't stay one more day. My buddies did and sent videos. Deep powder on April 24.
 

4ster

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From Big Picture Skiing:
New video coming out for opening weekend of the ski season in Australia! Moving the feet forward through the turn. I have covered this topic many times but felt I could do a better job whilst I was in Canada this season. The main points I want to get across
- how athletic stance makes the feet forward movement “snappy” as opposed to putting you backseat.
- it’s a subtle movement
- timing for a short turn vs long turn
- why it will helps unblock your outside ankle joint.

 
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James

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I only got 36 secs! It stops when he’s standing there in his urban winter, crash test dummy camo outfit.
Well really it’s a sailor camo outfit for WW1 zazzle camouflage ships.
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314E0D2F-95AF-418D-BC69-7E00FD6374C1.jpeg
 
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Sledhead

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Interesting discussion re equal tipping (sorry, didn’t read entire post). Do we really want to do that? How?
Again ... I'm getting into trouble for apologizing. You sound like my ex. I'm sorry you feel that way, Honey.
I promise to read more of your posts.
 

slow-line-fast

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Tip lead, like so many things in ski technique, is a balancing act. It's a necessity because we flex the inside leg more than the outside and ankle mobility is very limited in ski boots. This is all exaggerated at high edge angles, where we need to flex the inside leg more, and we can't do that without the inside foot shifting further forward relative to the outside foot.

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But I know from my own skiing (that's not me in the pic :roflmao:) and the skiing of many other mere mortals that the tendency is to end up with too much inside tip (foot, knee, hip) lead, and consequent twisting of the hip toward the outside of the turn, hip dump, losing connection with the outside ski, falling inside and skidding.

So I like drills focused on shuffling the outside foot forward, or the inside foot back, or both. But this can't go too far - if we have no inside tip lead, we block our ability to increase edge angles.

I like Deb Armstrong's take, from about 1:18. Also 6:15, 'Trouble!'. But really the whole video. Full disclosure, I always like Deb Armstrong's take.

 

Sanity

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Tip lead, like so many things in ski technique, is a balancing act. It's a necessity because we flex the inside leg more than the outside and ankle mobility is very limited in ski boots. This is all exaggerated at high edge angles, where we need to flex the inside leg more, and we can't do that without the inside foot shifting further forward relative to the outside foot.

I was going to say the exact same thing, though in terms of flexing the boot instead of the leg. When there's a weight shift to the outside ski, the leg with the weight has the ability to flex the boot. The leg without weight has no ability to flex the boot. The flexed boot can go further back then the unflexed boot, so there's a natural tip lead that happens just from weight shifting and flexing. When most of the weight is on the outside ski, the outside ski boot is flexed more than the inside ski boot.
 
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