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Takeaways from the PSIA National Academy, 2022

Rod9301

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He makes no mention of using the inside leg in that way in his edu vids. And the drills re increasing angles don't reflect that (hand drags, handy-Js). More focused on shortening the inside leg.

The tipping of the skis is well matched even if the shin angles aren't.

You're right of course, he also shortens the inside leg. But try it.

To effectively shorten the radius you need to

Shorten the inside leg
Tip the inside foot more
And pull the inside foot back

Works like magic, and as far as i can tell, all three are needed.
 

James

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I think the green is tightening the turn by tipping the inside ski more.
That may be a mental que for some, but the radius is tightened by more edge angle on the outside ski if that’s the ski driving the turn. That’s made easier and/or possible by shortening the inside leg. You could have a nearly flat inside ski and still tighten the radius. Not that you’d want to do it.
 

JESinstr

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He makes no mention of using the inside leg in that way in his edu vids. And the drills re increasing angles don't reflect that (hand drags, handy-Js). More focused on shortening the inside leg.

The tipping of the skis is well matched even if the shin angles aren't.
As time goes on, I think we will all come to realize the important role the inside leg plays in the building of edge angles. For me it is by far the easiest way to get an intermediate parallel skier to say WOW!
 

mdf

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The in-my-opinion-confusing-named "knee drive" in the Deb Armstrong video of last year is a way to use the inside leg to get more outside-leg angle and therefore shorter radius. I tried it and it works...
 

LiquidFeet

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The in-my-opinion-confusing-named "knee drive" in the Deb Armstrong video of last year is a way to use the inside leg to get more outside-leg angle and therefore shorter radius. I tried it and it works...
The inside leg can be used to build and control edge angles, and since edge angle impacts turn radius, what the skier does with the inside leg can pilot turn shape too.

I've found in my experience that this fact been pretty much suppressed in recreational ski instruction. Not actively suppressed so much as sidelined, unemphasized, or bypassed. I'm glad to see Deb Armstrong addressing it so deliberately. In my sessions with her at PSIA's National Academy the emphasis was on working the outside ski/foot/leg exclusively.

Anyone know why PSIA has focused more on the role of the outside leg? Has HH's emphasis on inside foot and leg management have anything to do with this?

Or have others here found that working the inside leg (or foot or ski) to control edge angle/turn radius is a prevalent part of instruction for recreational skiers?
 
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mike_m

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The amount of emphasis placed on the activity of the inside leg varies with the instructor. Many are unaware of its importance, so it is not mentioned. The blending of efficient and accurate activity of all parts of the body is what results in optimal skiing. The search for this is what this thread, and all ski instruction is (or should be!), all about. Striving to understand how the parts of the body function and work in harmony when skiing is (hopefully!) what we do!

As a side note, the respectful and open exchenge of ideas on this site is wonderfully refreshing. Kudos to Phil and Tricia for encouraging it and making sure it continues!

Best!
Mike
 

Matt Merritt

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This is all very new to me and hugely interesting. While I've got you...

I recently watched a video of MIkaela Shiffrin freeskiing and, even with her huge coat, I can see that very active inside knee. I am also seeing where she literally leaves no tracks in the corduroy snow between turns. Is this an active retraction between turns and an extension into the move Deb Armstrong describes as the skis go onto their new edges or is she just relaxing her legs and letting her very racy skis rebound her into that next turn?

 
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mike_m

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This is one of Tom Gellie's videos. I had the pleasure of training with him in New Zealand and no one has a better understanding of kinesiology in relation to skiing! Tom has a terrific series of instructional vids under "Big Picture Skiing." He also has an ongoing series of excellent podcasts under the same name. I recommend both resources highly.

At the beginning of the video, he mentions that Mikaela's transition is a combination of retraction and extension. Either one by itself, or in combination, can be effective in lightening the skis, which she does. This lightening is what allows her to take her weight off her old outside ski and shift smoothly to her new outside ski while her skis are weightless. Her center of mass simultaneously crosses over the skis to facilitate this. She first flattens the skis, then starts to tip them over before she starts downhill.

Actual deflection/pressure back from the snow happens well after she has started downhill and is at its maximum at "8 o'clock" and 4 o'clock" as she shapes the end of the turn using the back half of her outside ski. (There is an in-depth discussion of the use of the back of the outside ski at the beginning of this thread.) Make sense?

Best!
Mike
 
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Tex

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I am also seeing where she literally leaves no tracks in the corduroy snow between turns.
That's an air-plane turn Matt, we be doing that in the 80's...

wp1985-2.JPG
 

James

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Or have others here found that working the inside leg (or foot or ski) to control edge angle/turn radius is a prevalent part of instruction for recreational skiers?
Well the “knee drive” thing was common in race coaching even 20 years ago. They used to have people hold the inside knee and drive it in.

“Left tip left to turn left…”, is all inside ski. So, I would somewhat disagree.

Stem Christie- outside ski focused. Replaced, what 40 years ago?, by
Wedge Christie - inside ski focused.



Sometimes it’s necessary to just stem. Those kids on that terrain at that moment aren't going to release the outside/new inside ski and go down the hill.
 

LiquidFeet

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....I recently watched a video of MIkaela Shiffrin freeskiing and, even with her huge coat, I can see that very active inside knee. I am also seeing where she literally leaves no tracks in the corduroy snow between turns. Is this an active retraction between turns and an extension into the move Deb Armstrong describes as the skis go onto their new edges or is she just relaxing her legs and letting her very racy skis rebound her into that next turn?
First of all, she stays low between turns when she's floating. In the middle of this float phase both lower legs exhibit the same forward tilt. You can see this in the image below. This is not an extension as the skis flatten.

Screen Shot 2022-07-06 at 1.51.19 PM.png

The question then becomes whether she shortens both legs to help lift her skis in a retraction, or whether she shortens only the old outside leg to get that long air-borne float. IME if one shortens that old outside/new inside leg fast, the release produces nice pop.

In the image below, compare the forward tilt of the lower legs down at the boots. There is still snow spray so this image is at the release and the very beginning of the float. The skis are not yet flat. The lower part of the old outside leg is more forward-tilted than the old inside leg. This indicates that she is releasing that old outside ski by shortening that leg and probably pulling back that foot. Those two together will produce the extra lower leg tilt we see here. If she does this shortening and pulling back fast enough, and has her upper body's momentum carrying her a little upward and over the skis, she will get that float.

She is not lengthening the new outside leg to propel herself over the skis, nor is she lengthening that leg to get "early engagement" on the new outside ski. The engagement comes later when she lands.

Screen Shot 2022-07-06 at 1.50.09 PM.png
 

LiquidFeet

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Well the “knee drive” thing was common in race coaching even 20 years ago. They used to have people hold the inside knee and drive it in.

“Left tip left to turn left…”, is all inside ski. So, I would somewhat disagree.....
Yes, race coaches teach this. My experience has been that recreational teaching (mostly beginners, novices, and intermediates) focuses more on the new outside ski. But my experience maybe can't be legitimately generalized.
 
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geepers

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This is all very new to me and hugely interesting. While I've got you...

I recently watched a video of MIkaela Shiffrin freeskiing and, even with her huge coat, I can see that very active inside knee. I am also seeing where she literally leaves no tracks in the corduroy snow between turns. Is this an active retraction between turns and an extension into the move Deb Armstrong describes as the skis go onto their new edges or is she just relaxing her legs and letting her very racy skis rebound her into that next turn?


That coat does hamper the view.

Much the same commentary could apply to this skier - we get a clear outline and back/side/front views.

 

slow-line-fast

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Well the “knee drive” thing was common in race coaching even 20 years ago. They used to have people hold the inside knee and drive it in.
Yup, and we still do. A few variations -

First sensory feedback, hands on kneecaps, feel knee position through the turn: are they both tipping at the same time, and to equal angles? Or is the inside knee starting to tip later, and not as far as the outside knee?

Then some active movement/focus such as,
a) Hands on kneecaps, now use your hand to tip the inside knee in the direction of the new turn early and far
b) As (a) but with hands on the insides of both knees. I don't like this one as it can backfire if the skier pushes knee against hand rather than hand against knee. But some like coaching this.
c) Hands outside both knees, near but not touching, focus is to try to drive the inside knee to touch the inside hand early in the turn. My favorite among these.

etc.

Also appropriate for recreational instruction, except in my opinion (b) which I don't like for racers either. But some do.

Of course it needs demo, skier reflection, feedback, and to sit within a broader instructional goal. And to be sure that all the focus on tipping the inside ski doesn't end up in overweighting the inside ski.

You can also fuss with therabands around the knees, but that takes some adjustment to be sure it isn't too tight which would force an A-frame. If too loose it ends up tangled around the feet. Lots of laughing and time passing. The ideal size also varies with turn dynamics. But (an hour later...) if you do get it adjusted well for each skier, it can provide a good sensory cue to actively drive the inside knee into the turn.
 

Slemers

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This is one of Tom Gellie's videos. I had the pleasure of training with him in New Zealand and no one has a better understanding of kinesiology in relation to skiing! Tom has a terrific series of instructional vids under "Big Picture Skiing." He also has an ongoing series of excellent podcasts under the same name. I recommend both resources highly.

At the beginning of the video, he mentions that Mikaela's transition is a combination of retraction and extension. Either one by itself, or in combination, can be effective in lightening the skis, which she does. This lightening is what allows her to take her weight off her old outside ski and shift smoothly to her new outside ski while her skis are weightless. Her center of mass simultaneously crosses over the skis to facilitate this. She first flattens the skis, then starts to tip them over before she starts downhill.

Actual deflection/pressure back from the snow happens well after she has started downhill and is at its maximum at "8 o'clock" and 4 o'clock" as she shapes the end of the turn using the back half of her outside ski. (There is an in-depth discussion of the use of the back of the outside ski at the beginning of this thread.) Make sense?

Best!
Mike
It looks like to me that she is using the *virtual* bump to unload her skis on this nice corduroy run. Is that part of what we are seeing here?
 

JESinstr

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The amount of emphasis placed on the activity of the inside leg varies with the instructor. Many are unaware of its importance, so it is not mentioned. The blending of efficient and accurate activity of all parts of the body is what results in optimal skiing. The search for this is what this thread, and all ski instruction is (or should be!), all about. Striving to understand how the parts of the body function and work in harmony when skiing is (hopefully!) what we do!
Mike,
While I totally agree with the intent and philosophy of what you wrote above, I think discussion on the role of the inside leg is more functional vs philosophical.

Like many sports, skiing is what I call a "Two Sided" sport meaning that parts from one side of the body function in support of the other side. Two quick examples that come to mind are golf and bicycling. Inherent in these types of sports is the need to transition. Clearly parts need to work in harmony, but the parts first have to work, and all instructors should have the knowledge and training to instill this in their students.

I may have interpreted you post in the wrong way and if so, I apologize.
 
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mike_m

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JESinstr: Not quite sure of your point. The sentence following your bolded one ("The blending of efficient and accurate activity of all parts of the body is what results in optimal skiing.") is in complete agreement with you. The bolded sentence was simply an acknowledgment of the reality that some instructors are either unaware of the role of the inside leg or not versed enough in its use to include it in their lessons!

Best!
Mike
 

LiquidFeet

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....The bolded sentence was simply an acknowledgment of the reality that some instructors are either unaware of the role of the inside leg or not versed enough in its use to include it in their lessons!

Best!
Mike
This is why I'd like PSIA to make a concerted effort to emphasize the functional role of the inside ski/foot/leg in its educational materials and in its courses. Simply saying both sides of the body need to work together doesn't do the job of retraining those who don't know how to be proactive with the inside foot and leg.
 

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