TDF 2021: when pigs fly

[markojp]

'Good' is incredibly relative. Every single guy in the TdF is freakishly stupidly strong compared to pretty much everyone in the civilian cycling world.

 

[jmeb]

This makes Cavendish work a bit easier.

Not only is the sprinter field weak this year -- people are overlooking that DQS is the only team that has a half way decent train. And they are far more than have decent -- they are fantastic. Morkov -- Cav's leadout man -- has been riding absolutely beautifully. Nearly any of the top 10 sprinters in the field could have 3 wins this tour if they were behind the DQS train. Honestly -- Cavs physical performance is sorta meh so far. He's been good, not great. That said, his storyline is the one that excites me the most about this Tour.

You want to talk about fishy -- talk about Wout van Aert. I really enjoy watching him, but closing down Cav in a bunch sprint yesterday (he would've won if there were 50m more road) and then going solo 30km out for a win on a double Mont Ventoux today is far more ridiculous a physical performance.

Anywho -- it's all speculation. So I take it with the same approach as @Primoz. No use worrying about who is or isn't. Lance won 7 Tours against a doped peloton. Merckx and his ilk were all doped up too.

 

[wooglin]

'Good' is incredibly relative. Every single guy in the TdF is freakishly stupidly strong compared to pretty much everyone in the civilian cycling world.

This. Though I’d omit the pretty much part.

 

[Primoz]

You want to talk about fishy -- talk about Wout van Aert. I really enjoy watching him, but closing down Cav in a bunch sprint yesterday (he would've won if there were 50m more road) and then going solo 30km out for a win on a double Mont Ventoux today is far more ridiculous a physical performance.

Exactly that. He can win sprints, he can win TT and he can win mountain stages. And if he would be only one like this fine, but nowadays there's plenty of 60kg pure climber guys who can win TT against proper TT riders, and who can outsprint some of best sprinters on world, and at same time push close to 7W/kg for 30+min, and vice versa, big heavy TT guys doing better in mountains then Armstrong did in his most doped years. Normal? I don't think so, but it makes things more interesting so why not

 

[crosscountry]

Sidebar: One thing civilian riding totally needs to pick up from pro road riding is the completely mature science of warm downs. Yes I know there are core temp measurements that make this easier (tech upgrades!) but warm-down isn't even a thing among civilian riders with no race experience. And it needs to be, especially in the aging population.

What is "warm down"? Which I assume is different from "cool down"?

 

[newfydog]

I can't imagine having riders with little racing experience. I watch the peloton and freak out at the thought of riding that close to one person, let alone 50 or more!

While some of those riders in the TDF have more skill than others, every one of them has years of experience riding in packs. Every mistake you make as new rider draws a strong rebuke from the other riders, right from the beginning. My club used to do drills, riding for miles bumping shoulders, leaning on each other etc. We started that on grass, and moved up to high speeds from there. The rare rider that makes it to the TDF knows what the heck they are doing.

If you want to see scary pack riding, go watch a Cat. 5 field race a criterium .

 

[jt10000]

While some of those riders in the TDF have more skill than others, every one of them has years of experience riding in packs. Every mistake you make as new rider draws a strong rebuke from the other riders, right from the beginning. My club used to do drills, riding for miles bumping shoulders, leaning on each other etc. We started that on grass, and moved up to high speeds from there. The rare rider that makes it to the TDF knows what the heck they are doing.

Yes. I learned pack riding much the same way. Plus one club I was in required riders to be able to ride rollers before being allowed to race.

Also, the level closeness gets more extreme the higher up you go in racing.

And it's worth noting that one recent pro thinks the data focus of training nowadays is making racing more dangerous. And there seems to be less of a "club ride for skills" focus nowadays than in the past - with much more individual training (which is fine for fitness) and indoor riding.

If you want to see scary pack riding, go watch a Cat. 5 field race a criterium .

I'm not so sure about that - or at least it's rare to see really big crashes in real beginner races since the riders are afraid and stay away from each other.

 

[Primoz]

And it's worth noting that one recent pro thinks the data focus of training nowadays is making racing more dangerous.

This, and use of radios. With radios, riders are basically robots listening to orders from cars, and I hate to say that, with average intelligence of gold fish, when they hear "get in front line" they go in front line... problem is, this order hear 150 riders from their DSs, and all 150 go to front line... on 3m wide road. Consequences of that are seen almost every single time they hit narrow roads.
PS: I totally agree with this guy about Roglic. He's great rider, but his abilities to stay bike are questionable. You don't learn riding in pack at 25. I never did that, but I did shoot plenty of road races from motorbike and luckily I always had same driver who did his job amazingly. On motorbike you are normally part of peloton, especially when going through peloton from back to front or vice versa. And even though I spent plenty of time on that motorbike, and I didn't need to do anything except sit and take photos, I always felt so damn uncomfortable riding on huge motorbike in middle of those guys with 100 guys 5cm from you... at 50 or 60km/h. Being on bike and being responsible for your movement in that pack would be plain nightmare for me.

 

[AmyPJ]

So interesting!
I don't even like to get in and try to draft off my husband on the roads where while going 12+mph on our MTB. He will pull in behind me sometimes and I tell him to get off my ass!

 

[KevinF]

I'm not so sure about that - or at least it's rare to see really big crashes in real beginner races since the riders are afraid and stay away from each other.

Cat5 racers crash by accident. Cat1 racers crash by design.

 

[jt10000]

I don't like crashing but going fast in a big field is part of the charm to bike racing - at least for me.

I was in this race until just before the video starts - held up behind a crash with about 3 laps to go so finished off the back.


There are some wild falls in these last few laps. What's perhaps most interesting though is that when the winner crashes after the finish line no one else hits him. Which is quite a lot of skill.

What's even wilder at the top level of the sport is routinely having finishes as competitive like this or more so, but that the riders have not seen before getting to them.

Me earlier in the event. There was one Tour de France stage winner in the field and another guy who won stages of the Tours of Italy and Spain.....

 

[Tom K.]

Sidebar: One thing civilian riding totally needs to pick up from pro road riding is the completely mature science of warm downs. And it needs to be, especially in the aging population.

+1, especially after harder rides.

You have absolutely no idea how many middle aged riders go muy macho/ full gas (on recreational rides!) because it makes them feel accomplished, and then just plop onto the couch TO WATCH TODAY'S TOUR STAGE.

FIFY

All top guys are either nowhere near proper form (Demare, Pedersen), getting old but in worse way then Cav (Sagan, Greipel), not even there (Ackermann, Bennet) or crashed out (Ewan). This makes Cavendish work a bit easier.

Yup. It is cool to see the Old Guy winning, but the planets really had to align to make this possible.

Morkov -- Cav's leadout man -- has been riding absolutely beautifully.

After seeing yesterday's stage, I'm 100% convinced that under different circumstances, Morkov would be winning stages this year, not Cav.

Did the guy even get off his saddle, yesterday?!

 

[markojp]

Things I'd change if I were TdF Poobah.... No power meters*, speedos or heart rate monitors. Radios OK. Odometers OK.

*power data collected, encrypted, stored, and made visible to everyone (public, teams, racers) immediately after completion of the event.

 

[Tony S]

View attachment 137390

Nice shot.

 

[Tony S]

Your reasoning is similiar to the reasons so many of us defended Armstrong for so long. He survived cancer using all the best natural and medical world had to offer and turned his body into a machine.
And after all, as @scott43 says...

How many times did we hear Armstrong say that?

I don't have an an opinion about Cav and doping. I'm also not always a fan. (I like his candor but not his cockiness.)

In general I do think that it's healthier to give people the benefit of the doubt. The fact that you may be let down some or even much of the time doesn't matter. If someone betrays your trust it's on him, not on you. Meanwhile you've propped up the deserving folks and avoided poisoning your own heart with excessive cynicism.

(Obviously there's a line of dopey naïveté you don't want to cross. So many of us DID cross that with Lance, and he's deservedly been hearing about it ever since.)

 

[markojp]

I don't have an an opinion about Cav and doping. I'm also not always a fan. (I like his candor but not his cockiness.)

There's not a successful sprinter in cycling that isn't cocky or a bit of a total ass. You have to be. It goes with the risks of the territory.

 

[newfydog]

There's not a successful sprinter in cycling that isn't cocky or a bit of a total ass. You have to be. It goes with the risks of the territory.

You never met Eric Zabel. Six green jerseys, 12 stage wins, a total gentleman.

I had breakfast with him in Paris, when my table had an empty seat in a full airport hotel restaurant. Super nice guy. I had been at the Vuelta, and during warm ups, a young Spaniard held up pen and paper "Eric por favor, Eric por favor!" Eric struggled for words, and said "mas tarde". Sure enough, he went to the team bus, changed to his race clothes and bike, and on the way back went straight to the fan for photos and autographs.

 

[Primoz]

@newfydog but he wasn't really typical sprinter. Real dogs in his time were Cippolini, McEwen, Pettachi and similar, and all those fit perfectly with @markojp description. Of course I can be wrong, but I never considered Zabel as top sprinter. Sure he won more green jerseys then anyone else (not sure if it's still so or did Sagan beat that), but TdF green jersey is not so much about top sprinter but at least in my mind, someone who can ride most of stages upfront and not in disco group and get majority points on intermediate sprints where top dogs don't bother, rather then stage victories.

 

[scott43]

Cippoilni? Huh...

 

[cantunamunch]

*sigh* I miss the Cippo era. All the accessories looked cool.

Now it's all as bland or ugly or both as the cars...