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The Art of Falling

KingGrump

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So never try a steeper hill, bigger bumps, a new run, ski faster than normal or ski snow conditions you're not very familiar with? I see people like that every time I ski. They make me sad...

You have mistaken skiing in control with skiing without a clue, imagination and/or other body parts.
Upping one's skillset allows one to ski any terrain at desired speed in control. Skiing in control does not preclude one from hanging out in steeps, bumps and trees.

I am a short fat old dude. 67 to be exact. Will be 68 in Oct. This is couple places I hang out at for a good part of the season. Many good folks here have skied those terrain with me can tell you I have no issues skiing them in control.

Stauffenberg, TSV.
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Kachina Peak, TSV.
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Yeah challenging yourself is very important to progression. People should learn how to fall properly and reduce the risk of avoidable injuries. It’s impossible that someone progresses without ever falling. Don’t make that fall a career ending one. I’m sure the orthopedic industries love to have more patients, but I’m eating my apples every day.

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The sport we are all here to participate in is call Alpine Skiing. Not Alpine Falling.
If you focus on falling. You'll fall. Just like target fixation driving. Look and focus on the light pole. You'll hit the light pole. The mind is a strange thing.

The fall prep you are focus on are for low speed falls. usually happens when you catch an edge or simply go out of balance. All that can be fixed by improving your skill set. When was the last time you had a lesson? Bet you a single lesson with a good instructor will beat a whole summer prepping for falls.
Remember come winter, we want to go skiing. Not go falling.

High speed or steep terrain falls. Those are another animal all together. The only thing you can do is bend over and kiss your a$$ goodbye on the way down. Learning self arrest helps sometime. Not all the time.

Come to Taos and I'll introduce you to the safety guy, Slim.
The 2023 Taos mini gathering would be the perfect time.

This is Slim hard at work in his office off Chair #2.
1659322880421.jpeg

I'll even introduce you to Slim personally. We are buds.

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blue

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You have mistaken skiing in control with skiing without a clue, imagination and/or other body parts.
Upping one's skillset allows one to ski any terrain at desired speed in control. Skiing in control does not preclude one from hanging out in steeps, bumps and trees.

I am a short fat old dude. 67 to be exact. Will be 68 in Oct. This is couple places I hang out at for a good part of the season. Many good folks here have skied those terrain with me can tell you I have no issues skiing them in control.

Stauffenberg, TSV.
View attachment 174413

Kachina Peak, TSV.
View attachment 174410




View attachment 174411

The sport we are all here to participate in is call Alpine Skiing. Not Alpine Falling.
If you focus on falling. You'll fall. Just like target fixation driving. Look and focus on the light pole. You'll hit the light pole. The mind is a strange thing.

The fall prep you are focus on are for low speed falls. usually happens when you catch an edge or simply go out of balance. All that can be fixed by improving your skill set. When was the last time you had a lesson? Bet you a single lesson with a good instructor will beat a whole summer prepping for falls.
Remember come winter, we want to go skiing. Not go falling.

High speed or steep terrain falls. Those are another animal all together. The only thing you can do is bend over and kiss your a$$ goodbye on the way down. Learning self arrest helps sometime. Not all the time.

Come to Taos and I'll introduce you to the safety guy, Slim.
The 2023 Taos mini gathering would be the perfect time.

This is Slim hard at work in his office off Chair #2.
View attachment 174414

I'll even introduce you to Slim personally. We are buds.

View attachment 174415
Good points:beercheer:. There’s really no way to react to a high speed fall no matter how anyone practices, and not falling is the best way to not get hurt in that scenario.
 

tromano

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I wanted to add one thing here which is self coaching is so important. Good coaches put the athlete in a position to succeed. Put yourself in a position to succeed. Don't over terrain yourself. Choose equipment suitable to your skill level. Learn to recognize when your done for the day and don't ski to the point of exhaustion. Take lesson from a ski instructor.
 

KingGrump

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@KingGrump

Well said!

I need to check out Taos some time. Heard their week-long clinics are game changing!

 

Rich_Ease_3051

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Bet you a single lesson with a good instructor will beat a whole summer prepping for falls.

Why not both?

I can understand the point about older skiers potentially getting injured training how to fall. But if you're younger, or an older person that's very fit and athletic, what's the harm in doing falling-training for one summer?

Mind you, I don't suggest practicing how to fall every summer for the rest of your life. Perhaps just devote a whole day or a few days for one summer doing trampoline and inclined foam falls. Followed by another day or few days of falling on inclined grass after the body becomes comfortable with the sensation of falling on the ground. Then top it off with the real deal - falling on the snow with full kit on your first day of the season.

Some park skiers in this thread suggested that's enough to develop muscle memory.
 
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tromano

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Why not both?

I can understand the point about older skiers potentially getting injured training how to fall. But if you're younger, or an older person that's very fit and athletic, what's the harm in doing falling-training for one summer?

Mind you, I don't suggest practicing how to fall every summer for the rest of your life. Perhaps just devote a whole day or a few days for one summer doing trampoline and inclined foam falls. Followed by another day or few days of falling on inclined grass after the body becomes comfortable with the sensation of falling on the ground. Then top it off with the real deal - falling on the snow with full kit on your first day of the season.

Some park skiers in this thread suggested that's enough to develop muscle memory

I expect a full trip report from the tramp park.
 

Rich_Ease_3051

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If you focus on falling. You'll fall. Just like target fixation driving. Look and focus on the light pole. You'll hit the light pole. The mind is a strange thing.


I agree a skier should up their skill to prevent falling. And then up their recovery skills (this is a whole nother discussion topic) if they get in a situation where they are close to falling . For example, pulling their heel backwards if temporarily (not habitually) getting in a backseat position. Then as a last resort, hope the muscle memory from falling-training kicks in if all efforts have been exhausted to prevent a fall.

It would be a weird situation if a skier learns how to fall properly then uses that tool all the time at the slightest chance of falling. I mean it's possible some might to do this. But I find it unlikely.
 

LiquidFeet

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....Then as a last resort, hope the muscle memory from falling-training kicks in if all efforts have been exhausted to prevent a fall.
....
That right there is the problem with this line of thinking. Skiing with a focus on preventing falls is doomed to failure. Really.

Skiers need to focus on the "go there" elements of skiing without letting concerns about preventing falls creep into their heads and impact how they get down the hill. If a skier skis with movements meant to prevent falling, that skier's flow will be trashed. When the flow is trashed, falls happen.

I suspect this is what prompts the negative responses to a focus on training to fall. It's not the training itself that is objectionable. Go ahead and train to fall this summer.

But know that building muscle memory for falling without injury is worlds different from preventing falls. Being focused on preventing falls as you ski will cause serious problems . You may fall more frequently as a result.

Once the season starts, consider putting serious energy and time (and $$) into expanding your skillset. Take lessons. Doing this will likely be much more helpful for maintaining an injury-free season. Focusing on building new skills as you ski will displace the focus on preventing falls, and you'll not only ski more safely with better flow but have more fun doing it.
 

tromano

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That right there is the problem with this line of thinking. Skiing with a focus on preventing falls is doomed to failure. Really.

Skiers need to focus on the "go there" elements of skiing without letting concerns about preventing falls creep into their heads and impact how they get down the hill. If a skier skis with movements meant to prevent falling, that skier's flow will be trashed. When the flow is trashed, falls happen.

I suspect this is what prompts the negative responses to a focus on training to fall. It's not the training itself that is objectionable. Go ahead and train to fall this summer.

But know that building muscle memory for falling without injury is worlds different from preventing falls. Being focused on preventing falls as you ski will cause serious problems . You may fall more frequently as a result.

Once the season starts, consider putting serious energy and time (and $$) into expanding your skillset. Take lessons. Doing this will likely be much more helpful for maintaining an injury-free season. Focusing on building new skills as you ski will displace the focus on preventing falls, and you'll not only ski more safely with better flow but have more fun doing it.
I would add that the purpose of learning to fall as a risk mitigation only makes sense if falling is also done with that same go there intentionality. The mindset of preventing a fall at all costs is what leads to even worse crashes. You need to be able to fall tactically and in control.

 

James

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So never try a steeper hill,
Important to learn how to self arrest there, not fall.
Self arrest can be practiced on steep groomed terrain. Practicing falling there would not be a good idea.
 

Rich_Ease_3051

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Haven't found evidence that learning to fall will make one use falling-technique to always bail at the slightest chance of falling. Nor is there any evidence that having muscle memory of falling-training will interrupt the flow of a smooth skier. I'm certain of this because learning-to-fall is not a ski course that's offered to normal skiers. Maybe instructors can chime in if it is.

So if there are no skiers who have undertaken structured course on how to fall, there is no statistically significant concrete evidence that it will impede a skier's skills, progress, or "flow". Because there are no skiers or carvers who have undertaken that course in the first place.

I will take all comments as learning-to-fall being a liability to being a better skier as hypothesis. And that is fine, we should make hypotheses. It's part of the learning process and good for overall discussion.

I've only seen one testimony of an expert faller with some carving experience, and that is Jens in that StompIt YouTube video #40 post:

In the above video, he claimed to not have many devastating injuries, so I'll take that as one data point that learning to fall can help prevent injuries.

Although Jens is a park focused skier, he has also posted videos of him learning to carve.




So this Jens guy, who had martial arts training as a kid (where they teach how to fall properly), and who has posted a video of himself doing ski drills on how to fall, is not a bad carver. I will take that as evidence that learning to fall doesn't impede one's ability to carve or have a good flow as a skier.
 
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Sanity

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It's not an unreasonable day skiing for me if I fall several times, mostly because I'm pushing my limits. However, falling is my way to stay safe. I think lots of people get messed up, because they don't know how to fall, and they try to recover a bad position instead of just falling. There are times when I feel I must take every bit of care not to fall, and there are times when I will fall accidently on the bunny slope. I know what I do when I fall. I'm aware of every aspect of it. For me it's like it's in slow motion, whereas I hear from a number of people that they have no recollection of what happened, merely something is now broken. I can explain to someone what to do when they fall, I could even attempt to "teach" it, but I'm not confident that I could have much success in preventing their injuries. I don't know if good falling is genetic or a culmination of experiences, but I have had lots experiences in life that I think helps out. I think learning to ski and skate as a kid might be a big part of it, like learning languages when young. There are a number of sports where controlled falling is part of the game. Wrestling is a good example. Somebody is throwing you against your will, and you must learn to "land" without twisting up anything. First time I got tossed in a "fireman's" wrenched my shoulder pretty bad, but after drilling it over and over, I wouldn't blink an eye at getting tossed like that. "Sprawling" is a tremendous skill. Probably isn't the right move for skiing, but it saved my life. Day after day we drilled sprawling. Basically, it's a controlled fall to keep someone from grabbing your leg. One time an old lady pinched my bike between her car and the curb while passing me around a curve. The bike was frozen in place and got pulled under the car. I sprawled and got all my parts up on top of everything landing on the road after the car passed. High level volleyball is another sport where controlled falling is part of the game. You have to dive for the ball even on hard court. There are various techniques to avoid getting hurt, those techniques are drilled, and you may do it countless times in a day. I've even had my share of wrecks on bicycles and motorcycles (dirt bikes as a kid) without ever getting hurt other than some scrapes.

Sometimes, going down is the best course of action on skis. It begins with the awareness that you are out of control, and the fall is allowed. Awareness of all your parts and what will keep them safe continues until you stop. Don't get twisted up. Go down on your side. Keep the skis out of the snow so that they don't catch on things. I'm not a fan of cliffs or tree skiing, because I like to push my limits where falls happen, and there are definitely situations where you don't want to fall. This is one reason I love mogul skiing. You need to turn as if there's a tree, but if you miss the turn you'll live. Also, I'll ski fast for a mogul field, but max is usually around 20 mph which is not 60 mph. I wouldn't suggest falling at 60 mph. Also, the bumps keep you from sliding too far. So, really mogul skiing is very well suited for falling, if you know what you're doing. There are certain traps that can cause injury, but if you're aware of those traps, can fall to avoid them, and can fall safely, then I truly believe injuries can be reduced. I've had many injuries from sports in my life, but knock on my wood head, I've never had a single injury from skiing despite falling countless times.
 

LiquidFeet

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...Nor is there any evidence that having muscle memory of falling-training will interrupt the flow of a smooth skier. ...
You have misunderstood my point. I was responding to this that you posted:
Then as a last resort, hope the muscle memory from falling-training kicks in if all efforts have been exhausted to prevent a fall.
My point was that employing efforts to PREVENT A FALL would put a skier in danger of falling.

That is different from building muscle memory for handling a fall safely once it begins. No problem doing that. Of course knowing how to handle a fall is not going to impede one's flow.

The only effective way to train to prevent falls is to increase one's skill level. If one is falling regularly, skill building is needed more than training for handling falls that do happen.
 

locknload

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I would add that the purpose of learning to fall as a risk mitigation only makes sense if falling is also done with that same go there intentionality. The mindset of preventing a fall at all costs is what leads to even worse crashes. You need to be able to fall tactically and in control.

Honestly...thats a pretty slick move...maybe not advisable..but slick!!! :golfclap:
 

KingGrump

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Honestly...thats a pretty slick move...maybe not advisable..but slick!!! :golfclap:

I really like the clip. Like you said, slick.
Have to give the guy credit for putting in the "Don't try this at home" disclaimer.

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What I see here is a lot of extrapolation based on very little real world skiing experience. Severn days of "learning to carve" by his own admission.

Ignorance may ne bliss. A little knowledge is down right dangerous.
 

Pajarito-bred

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Finally got a chance to watch the video Yomomma references in post #1, it made me realize how much more fun life is when you have your skis on! I noticed many tumbles and slides, but to me, it's only unplanned events that count as falls; hitting the ground to avoid an imminent obstacle is just better pain management.

It's August, those of us stranded on the north side of the equator are making do with inferior alternative sports while impatiently waiting for leaves to fall and be covered with numerous flakes. Lots of interesting perspective in this thread -- Watching Marcus Caston, Markus Eder and other ski videos, rambling on philisophically (or not) about skiing, skis, ski places, is a pretty good summer coping mechanism, enabled by Skitalk admins and mods- thanks!

The video reminded me to go back and watch Markus Eder's "Ultimate ski run"; there's another thread here that links to it. Markus "falls" several times, but only to avoid obstacles. (maybe some others got edited out). Markus's giant grin at the end is the best part!

So maybe it's not falling, but fear of falling that's the issue. We have all seen folks that are seriously "over-terrained" traversing, side-slipping, walking and carrying their skis, etc. Staying "under-terrained" by being afraid to challenge yourself (or worse, being afraid to take a lesson!)! is less obvious but all too common.

Risk of falling deserves to be respected but not feared. Knowing how to land on hard snow without finding out that you've exceeded the breaking strength of your wrist bones or other important body features seems to me to be a good thing. Being afraid of falling would severely limit my skiing fun. Failing to understand the consequences of falling when skiing in poor weather and snow conditions, and in chutes and glades, though, could end my skiing fun completely. The joy of skiing fast, skiing challenging snow and terrain requires a delicate balance of fear/fun particularly when figuring out where to make the first turn to avoid an entrance rock in a narrow chute.

Many years ago ( approx. 1980's) I was skiing the central ridge at Snowbird, when I got my ski tip caught in a juniper bush, and was downhill from the bush, facing away from the cornice. I was pretty afraid of where I'd end up if I just pulled my ski out, and used the brilliant strategy of taking a seat before figuring out how to escape the grabby shrubbery. I'm old enough now that the only way I get big air anymore is if somebody pulls my finger; I know my ACL-reconstructed knee is now stronger than what is currently considered my "better" one, and don't relish the idea of getting a second chance to finish my conversation with the anesthesiologist.
 

James

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EE7D6A9A-0534-4B95-9D38-A0546007A9D1.jpeg

A slight depression/bump in that position would open the knee joint and load the tail for a phantom foot acl tear.

Better off trying a Polish doughnut.
 

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