The Art of Falling

[Rod9301]

At my level, i try very hard not to fall, and if i feel that I'm about to fall, try very hard to ski out of the fall. Works well, but not always.
So i don't agree with letting go and falling instead of trying to salvage a fall.
Falls are always unpredictable, you never know what could happen.

 

[Rich_Ease_3051]

You have misunderstood my point. I was responding to this that you posted:

My point was that employing efforts to PREVENT A FALL would put a skier in danger of falling.

That is different from building muscle memory for handling a fall safely once it begins. No problem doing that. Of course knowing how to handle a fall is not going to impede one's flow.

The only effective way to train to prevent falls is to increase one's skill level. If one is falling regularly, skill building is needed more than training for handling falls that do happen.

Hmm I don't know about preventing falls being dangerous. That's a bit of a blanket statement.

Admittedly, I implied that one should always try to prevent it. Perhaps I should correct myself: I think preventing falls is an "it depends" type of situation. Not to be done all the time. But NOT never to be done either.

It depends on the ski move, terrain, speed, experience, condition, slope, etc.

Take falling into backseat for example.

1. Yes I know one should take lessons to correct habitual backseatedness. Lessons, lessons, lessons.
2. If on occasion you fall into backseat, a technique I learned is to pull my heels. In the past, I would muster all the strength from my quads and core to get myself back on top of the skis. Pulling the heels is easier.
3. I would classify point #2 as preventing a fall. A recovery. Now, will that put me in danger of falling? I would say it just saved me from falling.
4. If I didn't pull my heels to get myself back on top of the skis, I would lean so much backwards that I would fall. By your statement: "employing efforts to PREVENT A FALL would put a skier in danger of falling", should I do nothing and just let myself fall? What would you do in this case? And please do not say #1. Even the best skiers with years and decades of experience fall into backseat on occasion. What's your suggestion to them? Should they not try to recover?

Trying to recover from falls is a whole nother topic totally separate from the act of falling itself. Maybe somebody can start a new thread "The Art of Recovering". There are so many ski moves and many potential ways to recover that it could save you or end up in catastrophe. And if you multiply that with the terrain, speed, experience, condition, slope, it's a myriad of situations that I don't think a blanket statement like "employing efforts to PREVENT A FALL would put a skier in danger of falling" would hold.

 

[fatbob]

At my level, i try very hard not to fall, and if i feel that I'm about to fall, try very hard to ski out of the fall. Works well, but not always.
So i don't agree with letting go and falling instead of trying to salvage a fall.
Falls are always unpredictable, you never know what could happen.

Not always - a hip check into the uphill slope particularly when it's steeper can be as simple as sitting down

 

[Rod9301]

Not always - a hip check into the uphill slope particularly when it's steeper can be as simple as sitting down

True, exceptions

 

[LiquidFeet]

Hmm I don't know about preventing falls being dangerous. That's a bit of a blanket statement.

Admittedly, I implied that one should always try to prevent it. Perhaps I should correct myself: I think preventing falls is an "it depends" type of situation. Not to be done all the time. But NOT never to be done either.

It depends on the ski move, terrain, speed, experience, condition, slope, etc.

Take falling into backseat for example.

1. Yes I know one should take lessons to correct habitual backseatedness. Lessons, lessons, lessons.
2. If on occasion you fall into backseat, a technique I learned is to pull my heels. In the past, I would muster all the strength from my quads and core to get myself back on top of the skis. Pulling the heels is easier.
3. I would classify point #2 as preventing a fall. A recovery. Now, will that put me in danger of falling? I would say it just saved me from falling.
4. If I didn't pull my heels to get myself back on top of the skis, I would lean so much backwards that I would fall. By your statement: "employing efforts to PREVENT A FALL would put a skier in danger of falling", should I do nothing and just let myself fall? What would you do in this case? And please do not say #1. Even the best skiers with years and decades of experience fall into backseat on occasion. What's your suggestion to them? Should they not try to recover?

Trying to recover from falls is a whole nother topic totally separate from the act of falling itself. Maybe somebody can start a new thread "The Art of Recovering". There are so many ski moves and many potential ways to recover that it could save you or end up in catastrophe. And if you multiply that with the terrain, speed, experience, condition, slope, it's a myriad of situations that I don't think a blanket statement like "employing efforts to PREVENT A FALL would put a skier in danger of falling" would hold.

Good point about pulling heels back. I agree.

Do you do other things regularly to prevent falls?

 

[Sanity]

At my level, i try very hard not to fall, and if i feel that I'm about to fall, try very hard to ski out of the fall. Works well, but not always.
So i don't agree with letting go and falling instead of trying to salvage a fall.
Falls are always unpredictable, you never know what could happen.

I think falling can be predictable, repeatable, and safe. There are definitely times you don't want to fall. It doesn't take many times falling on ice to come to the conclusion that you don't want to do it, though if you watch Olympic figure skating, they fall on rock hard ice all the time. Regular falls are part of the sport.

A recovery would certainly be preferred over falling, that's not the issue. It's a failed recover that is the problem. If you could guarantee a recover every time then that would be the way to go, but really once you're out of control on skis, that's when it's unpredictable. You're gambling. Once you feel that loss of control you could fall right now, or you could try to recover and maybe or maybe not fall. If it's just a matter of falling now or maybe falling later, it seems it's better to take a chance not to fall. Though in reality, falling after a failed recovery is not in the same category. Once you go out of control, you can't predict what position you'll end up in, and falling from different positions are not all equal. You can easily end up in a position where you can't fall safely, where you might fall on your head and break your neck. Or, more commonly, if you try to regain balance, that often means that your legs are going to spread, your arms are going to stick out (for counter balancing to regain balance). You're going to be loading you're knees from a structurally weak position, and then all of a sudden there can be a force on your boot resulting in a knee injury. A controlled skiing position is also a controlled position to fall from. Putting yourself in some random balance recovery position can be a disastrous position to fall from. Besides that, you'll likely be accelerating the entire time you're trying to recover, because you're not in control which means that you'll be falling at faster speeds with more energy. Finally, while you're out of balance on your skis you can easily catch an edge that sends your body rotating head over heels which also is not an easy way to fall safely.

In general, I think a skier should avoid sticking their arms out or spreading their legs to avoid landing on an elbow, wrist, or knee in a bad way. They need to be small to avoid get whipped into the ground. They need to avoid landing on a bad spot such as the head or too high on the shoulder (dislocated collar bone). This basically means going into a fetal position and landing on the side. This can be done very easily from a sound skiing position which is why I often make the decision to fall early. Sometimes I'll go for the recovery, but not often in a bump field. The last thing I need is to head into a bump out of control before falling. There's just so little time for a recovery in the bumps. I would have more success on a wide open groomed slope where I've got plenty of time before I have to turn to avoid disaster.

 

[fatbob]

Thinking about recent rememberable falls I think many fall into the loss of edge grip/skill and slide out where the fall itself is innocuous and it's only the slickness and pitch of the surface and below obstacles which present jeopardy.

The other category which are less frequent is the WTF fall where you just get launched through running out of talent or hitting entirely unforseen features like an undersnow stump or a piste edge that crumbles. Not a lot you can do about them other than ragdoll and do the obvious re tucking in head etc

 

[Sanity]

This video posted earlier is a perfect example of how refusing to fall after she lost control caused the injury (either by intent or lack of knowledge). At 6:26, all she had to do was lie down on her side, and she'd been fine. Even though she didn't, she still had many opportunities to just lie down on her side, but instead she tried to get up, and then finally reached a position where there was nothing she could do to avoid injury.

 

[LiquidFeet]

^^Exactly.
The attempt to recover from a fall after it started failed.
Thus the usual advice to just let the fall happen; don't try to stop it.

 

[fatbob]

This video posted earlier is a perfect example of how refusing to fall after she lost control caused the injury (either by intent or lack of knowledge). At 6:26, all she had to do was lie down on her side, and she'd been fine. Even though she didn't, she still had many opportunities to just lie down on her side, but instead she tried to get up, and then finally reached a position where there was nothing she could do to avoid injury.

That's nuts. While there was a chance she screwed up the "flop" and got a ski edge caught if she fell early it would be far less than accelerating out of control. The guffawing idiot filming her doesn't show much awareness either.

 

[James]

As a beginner, the best thing in general when things get out of hand is just to fall. Bailing out to the side early is almost always better.

Actually, i teach people to go low first, do this by grabbing the knees. (It’s amazing the # of people when asked to put their hands on knees, just standing there, put them on the middle of the thigh)

Once hands are on knees, try to turn uphill. If that doesn’t work, bail out to the side and just fall.

The natural reaction when you’ve lost control, is like slipping on ice. You throw your hands up in the air. So this makes you taller. For adults this really isn’t good. Being further from the ground makes you less likely to even consider falling. So instead of falling, they lean and twist away from danger. This makes it much worse, because then they edge lock and the only thing that will stop them is terrain running out, a fall, someone stopping them, or they hit something

Bear in mind this whole process takes place very quickly.

I used to demo getting low and then bailing out to the side. Been awhile since that.

Honestly, the only way to get the ability to fight throwing hands up in air is to practice getting low. You don’t actually need to put hands on knees, but I think it makes a good focus. Other wise, “getting low” usually results in a little stooping. I try to get some just getting low practice in. This is harder than you’d think.

I also like to get people going backwards a little to a stop. Almost from the get go. (Some do refuse.) The reason is, it’s highly likely at some point this is going to happen, so if they’ve at least done it, they may not panic as much.
The usual thing for people suddenly moving backwards is to lean so far towards the tips they come out of the binding. But bad things can happen before that with that much leaning.

 

[LiquidFeet]

^^ That is experience speaking. Valuable advice.

 

[Crank]

I probably recovered from a thousand falls like the video above without injury. In moguls no less. However, I would not even attempt it at my relatively advanced age.

Older and wiser? Older and weaker? Both I 'd say.

 

[James]

That's nuts. While there was a chance she screwed up the "flop" and got a ski edge caught if she fell early it would be far less than accelerating out of control. The guffawing idiot filming her doesn't show much awareness either.

Good example, if she just fell right way she’d probably be fine. Even had multiple chances to bail.

She says she remembered seeing on tv people who sit down and get up, so she tried that.

 

[KingGrump]

Good example, if she just fell right way she’d probably be fine. Even had multiple chances to bail.

She says she remembered seeing on tv people who sit down and get up, so she tried that.

Rearward twisting falls are a easiest way to take out the ACL.

Got to love the "I got this. I saw it done on Youtube."
Monday is the busiest days for plumbers. They get to fix the it's easy, I saw it done on Youtube clusterf***s.

 

[James]

Got to love the "I got this. I saw it done on Youtube."

Yeah even it was that guy in Section 8 school video demoing whatever that move
was.

Kind of why it’s generally not a good idea to demonstrate the wrong move. That’s what people remember. Like saying “no mayo” at the deli is just as likely to end up made as “extra mayo.”

Some years ago i did have a wedge turning kid who stopped by just leaning back on the snow. The unusual thing was he was past the age where that's not uncommon. I can’t remember, but he was like 8-10yrs old, and not tiny.

He would just go along, then when he wanted to stop he would lie back, stop, then pop up. He was really good at it, I’d never seen anything like it. He was a solid green skier, we were even doing an easy blue trail.

Nothing I could say or show could convince him to try something else. I resisted the diabolical- taking them into bumps. I presume at some point he got tired of that method and learned something else. But back then he saw no flaw in his method.

 

[David]

Why would "skiing in control" stop people from doing those things?

So you never fell...even when you tried bumps for the first time? Are pro skiers always in 100% control? Seems they fall a lot too.

 

[David]

You have mistaken skiing in control with skiing without a clue, imagination and/or other body parts.
Upping one's skillset allows one to ski any terrain at desired speed in control. Skiing in control does not preclude one from hanging out in steeps, bumps and trees.

I am a short fat old dude. 67 to be exact. Will be 68 in Oct. This is couple places I hang out at for a good part of the season. Many good folks here have skied those terrain with me can tell you I have no issues skiing them in control.

Stauffenberg, TSV.
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Kachina Peak, TSV.
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The sport we are all here to participate in is call Alpine Skiing. Not Alpine Falling.
If you focus on falling. You'll fall. Just like target fixation driving. Look and focus on the light pole. You'll hit the light pole. The mind is a strange thing.

The fall prep you are focus on are for low speed falls. usually happens when you catch an edge or simply go out of balance. All that can be fixed by improving your skill set. When was the last time you had a lesson? Bet you a single lesson with a good instructor will beat a whole summer prepping for falls.
Remember come winter, we want to go skiing. Not go falling.

High speed or steep terrain falls. Those are another animal all together. The only thing you can do is bend over and kiss your a$$ goodbye on the way down. Learning self arrest helps sometime. Not all the time.

Come to Taos and I'll introduce you to the safety guy, Slim.
The 2023 Taos mini gathering would be the perfect time.

This is Slim hard at work in his office off Chair #2.
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I'll even introduce you to Slim personally. We are buds.

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Must be pretty cool being the only skier in history to be in total control 100% of the time? Now if we can get the pro racers on board they won't need those pesky helmets and all that fencing along the course!

 

[slowrider]

Nothing more refreshing than a load of snow in your face or down your pants on a warm Spring day.

 

[François Pugh]

Must be pretty cool being the only skier in history to be in total control 100% of the time? Now if we can get the pro racers on board they won't need those pesky helmets and all that fencing along the course!

Most racers are skiing at the edge of control. There could be some that are in it just so they can ski fast and in control on a nice semi-safe ropped off course, like taking your motorcycle or fun car to a track day, but most are trying to win or place better than they would if they were 100% in control.

Skiing at the edge of control (or even past it - how do you know where the edge is without stepping over it?) is fine in my book, so long as there is nobody in your spill zone when you do.

A lot of skiers would rather not come close to that edge, and that's fine too. You make your choice and pay the price as needed.