The Biggest Expert Ski Areas in N America

[Wasatchman]

I thought Park City was flat? Like Vail. That’s what everyone here says.

Park City has the vertical of an anthill judging by a lot of comments on ski talk. I'm amazed how poorly PCMR and Vail are thought of by many on here.

 

[Pajarito-bred]

Interesting list. Someone has too much time on their hands

As do we all -- it's the middle of September, finally starting to cool down a bit, and the dusty skis in the closet are getting restless... I can hear them clattering around in there at night, with the wily veteran rock skis knowing they'll be picked to start the season ahead of the new-last-year boards.

The most significant data point missing is Silverton Mountain, which is likely to be solidly in the middle of the Category A "big resort" acreage, and a very-close to 100% of their terrain eligible for inclusion.

It's awfully easy to critique the points used to create a dataset, (especially if different cutoff points lead to results that you like better) but the OP both selected well and explained well, all-too-rarely done these days...
I could splinter the data myself into areas/terrain I've skied, terrain I've yet to ski, as well as some terrain I might have skied before but now am smarter to avoid. Data asterisks that could be added:

• Big-snow years can make sketchy/scary chutes a wide cakewalk in late season. (Isn't that the name of a run somewhere, maybe Taos?)
• Low-snow years or too-early in the season could mean skiing is limited to hard-packed groomer gravel below the well-advertised chutes you'd hoped to conquer.
• "shopping" may consist of little beyond goggle-wipes and PBR (ref: Silverton) You are free to count this asterisk in the "Silverton ranks higher than PCMR" column if your ski partner lets you get away with it.

The Aspen Highlands trail map used to show in detail the steepest and average pitch, as well as the slope aspect for the 23 lines in Highlands Bowl, steepest average 40 degrees, steepest point 48 degrees. Only the top elevation is listed, it's about 1500 vertical from the peak to where the main runout begins, total 2425 vert. (1708 vert ft, Temerity lift to Loge Peak, another 717 vert ft hike to the peak at 12,392 (there's also a snowcat ride up the first 300 vert or so of the hike). I wonder if this info is easily available for other Cat A areas. The current one (as grabbed from OpenSnow) doesn't show those details, but the on-mountain one might still have it. For those with too much pre-season time on their hands, skimap.org is also great place to spend some. Here's a shot of the 2018 Highlands map - from skimap.org. And Silverton (my photos circa 2011).

 

[Tonyr4]

Park City has the vertical of an anthill judging by a lot of comments on ski talk. I'm amazed how poorly PCMR and Vail are thought of by many on here.

I love Park City and never got all of the complaints, I think the terrain there is very underrated. The main problem with the resort is that it's so spread out which makes it hard to ski all the best parts in one day. You really need to focus on Park City one day then the Canyons on another day.

 

[crosscountry]

Shouldn't the thread title be "The Biggest STEEP Ski Area..."?

Aspen Highland won big because of its huge bowl which stay steep for a good part of the vertical. But it's wide open for the most part.

What makes the "expert" crowd happy are line requiring maneuvering. So even though both Jackson and Whistler didn't make the top 10, they're coveted by experts skiers. Rocks and trees make an area "ski big" than the plain acreage would imply.

Granted, on a powder day, straight down steep bowls are where everyone wants to be.

 

[PlainsSkier]

Park City has the vertical of an anthill judging by a lot of comments on ski talk. I'm amazed how poorly PCMR and Vail are thought of by many on here.

Vail has some fun areas to ski but the crowds and how overpriced everything is are some big negatives. I would much rather ski Copper just down the road.

 

[SSSdave]

Have kept away from this thread because have always cringed at the adjective EXPERT, especially as skiers toss it around and much prefer ADVANCED. Expert in many other skill areas has a much higher threshold. Also as others have noted, difficulty descending slopes is not just defined by slope gradient since it all isn't just soft snow though that is an important facet. The OP might have title the thread:

Ski Areas with the Most Skiable Steep Terrain in N America

 

[Nathanvg]

The top of Evergreen does indeed run the ridge to above the Sunrise lift. But as I said, the Solitude side has only 3 narrow colloirs that are skiable with unskiable cliffs comprising the remainder if it. And very few have both the skill and knowledge to ski them. The majority that drops down into the Brighton side off of the Evergreen ridge does not really qualify as expert to me. Fantasy Ridge requires a very gnarly boot pack that represents a sizeable barrier for many people to get up even if they have the skills to ski some of those chutes. And given that bootback, I can't imagine doing that more than twice in a day even for the very best in shape highly skilled. And you do not include Cathedral Cirque as an expert area of Solitude which is missing, and well above Boundary Chutes in terms of difficulty. But no way can I believe Solitude is top 10 in skiable acres of expert terrain.

And I would recheck Whistler Blackcomb. I bet it surpasses AltaBird as far as expert skiable acres of expert terrain. Not sure if you've skied there but that might be worth another look.

You clearly put some time into it which is cool, but I think you really need to refine it for a more accurate guage. Maybe with the help of pugskiers who are local to the various resorts if you were real serious of taking your map analysis up another level.

It has been a while since I went to Whistler and I hope to get back soon. I took a second look at the measurement and didn't see any errors. I excluded the closed cliff areas and those boarders could be off slightly but I don't see any significant issues. It is possible that the canadian data inaccuracies are having an impact.

So for Whitefish you excluded Haskill Slide and Langley and Powder Trap and Heep Steep and Elephants Graveyard and Schmidts Chute and Evans and Black Bear and Hidden Meadows, etc, etc. Or did you just lump them all into East Rim? I'm not going to bother to check your work, it's just seems like some arbitrary rules are not reflecting actual conditions.

But if it keeps people from coming here, great.

Locations refer to the general area in my notes. The areas you mention were included.

Reading through the lists again, very surprised that Alyeska missed. Pick a direction off the ridge and you will hit someplace with 300'+ of something 30° or more.

Good call, I added Alpental & Aleyska in original post

 

[noncrazycanuck]

Perhaps your comparing Whistler metric numbers to feet elsewhere.

 

[Wasatchman]

Perhaps your comparing Whistler metric numbers to feet elsewhere.

Good question. I just can't figure out how else Whistler is excluded.

 

[Nathanvg]

Perhaps your comparing Whistler metric numbers to feet elsewhere.

The source data includes metric and feet and it all adds up so that type of error is unlikely. The two most likely options if there is error are: 1) Canadian data precision limits resulting in misclassifications or 2) error in identifying the boundaries of the ski area. In both cases, local knowledge might be able to identify areas not listed below that should be included and/or identify areas that are much bigger than listed. Any suggestions?

Based on the data I have, I don't see many options. maybe outer limits (5) or upper lakeside bowl (20) would add a little but I think the steep parts are in the closed areas. If you looked at areas that missed the cut by <5 degrees: area above top of crystal lift adds 5, spanky's gets 5-10 acres bigger, symphony get about 15-20 acres bigger, 10 acres in harmony, whistler peak picks up another 10 acres, a few runs near the based on red add maybe 10. (all numbers approximate)

I should also emphasize that Whistler qualifies for category B as is which is still a lot of good expert skiing.

Whistler 80: peak 25, symphony 10, blackcomb (Saudan to picalolo) 15, spanky's 30

 

[Slim]

I think this is a great list. I don’t like that there are people who get upset that that a certain area isn’t ranked higher.
@Nathanvg has clearly posted his criteria and compiled an objective list. The only mistake, as mentioned by others, that I can see is the title. Ski area with the largest amount of steep terrain, is really what this ranking is.
If this was mountainbiking, or climbing, it would be easy. You add up the total number of climbs or trails of a certain, minimum difficulty, and you are done.
With skiing, we run into two problems:
1: it is ambiguous what constitutes ‘skiable terrain’. Is a 10’ cliff ‘ski terrain‘“ What about a 30’? What about a 100’ Cliff? How tight can the trees be before we call them in skiable terrain?
2: As others have mentioned, terrain space, obstacles and snow conditions have a huge influence on the difficulty of a certain ski run.

And then there is accessibilty. Is the terrain open a lot, or only once in a blue moon? What is the accesss?
You might have a large acreage of expert terrain, but if it only opens once every five years, and requires a two hour hike to access, it might not be your best bet to plan a trip for some steep skiing.

In short, I think it is fun to see the metrics, but I think it has limited practical application for trip planning.

 

[charlier]

If the data is that incomplete that it doesn't have Red Mt ranked higher, it's completely off.

Red has 2900 lift-served acres, not including hike-to and cat-served inbounds terrain. It's where the Canada open freeride championship is held. 23% of the terrain is black diamond, 26% double black, much of it long, continuous fall-line skiing, so that's 49% of the inbounds lift-served terrain. Fatmap isn't giving me the trail degrees the way it used to (probably need to pay for the premium version to get that now), but I know a lot of the advanced expert terrain exceeds 35 degrees.

A minor correction. Red has 3850 acres and 2919 vertical. This does not count walk-to-ski and the cat ride from Grey to Kirkup Mtn.

 

[Sibhusky]

FAT MAP's Red Mountain. With degrees.

 

[4ster]

A minor correction. Red has 3850 acres and 2919 vertical. This does not count walk-to-ski and the cat ride from Grey to Kirkup Mtn.

Maybe another minor correction. Did Kicking Horse include the more recently opened Rudi’s & Super Bowl areas? We skied those areas years ago before they were within the boundary & there were some pretty steep shots.
Highlighted in yellow…

 

[dbostedo]

the more recently opened Rudi’s & Super Bowl areas?

Super Bowl opened in 2010, so hopefully that was included. Rudi's was just a few years ago though.

 

[Wasatchman]

I think this is a great list. I don’t like that there are people who get upset that that a certain area isn’t ranked higher.
@Nathanvg has clearly posted his criteria and compiled an objective list. The only mistake, as mentioned by others, that I can see is the title. Ski area with the largest amount of steep terrain, is really what this ranking is.

I'm not upset by the rankings. It's simply that I have skied a lot of the list and some of it doesn't seem to match personal experience is all. I think it's cool @Nathanvg put in the effort. I think you said it best, it is fun to see the metrics that he came up with but there are limits to using it for trip planning. I think with help from locals at each resort that list could be especially cool.

 

[Nathanvg]

Did Kicking Horse include the more recently opened Rudi’s & Super Bowl areas?

Yes, they were grouped with the terminator (45) and Fuez (50) sections respectively. Some of these areas were added after my last trip there, I hope to get back soon.

I'm not upset by the rankings. It's simply that I have skied a lot of the list and some of it doesn't seem to match personal experience is all. I think it's cool @Nathanvg put in the effort. I think you said it best, it is fun to see the metrics that he came up with but there are limits to using it for trip planning. I think with help from locals at each resort that list could be especially cool.

This metric is just one factor when planning trips and I hope others may find it helpful too. There are many insights this data can lead to when combined with other data as well. For example:

• Squaw has a lot of steep terrain but about 75% of it is lower mountain. Tahoe is also known for large variations in snowfall year to year and rain risk on the lower mountain based on sources such as bestsnow.net. In short, it can be feast or famine.
• When grouped by a region, the top regions by expert acres are below.
• You can combine with total ski areas size or amount of terrain less steep than the metric this tread is about..
• You can combine with rain risk, snow quality, snow amount, % sunny days, etc. and get some different rankings.
• You can combine with non-skiing factors such as free parking, fancy hotels, nightlife, "vibe," etc.
• You can combine with skiers/acre, lift line or other crowding factors.

For me personally, acres of expert skiing combined with crowding, total ski area size and "significant vertical per run" are probably the most important factors. Snow is also a factor but only in extremes (e.g. 300" vs 400" isn't that big of a deal but might impact the month I ski. High year-to-year variability might mean I book after a decent base has accumulated, etc.) Other people will have different priorities and that's fine.

Largest Expert Areas by region (<45 minute drive from central lodging to several ski areas)

1. SLC region 1295: Altabird 870:, Solitude 210, Park city 160, Snowbasin 45
2. Bozmen region 455: Bridger 255, Big Sky 205
3. N Tahoe region 450: Squaw 285, Alpine meadow 85, Mt Rose 80
4. Crystal 295: northway 65, niagra area 100, exterminator 45, sunnyside 15, crystal peak to 3-way 70
5. Crested Butte 230: NF 100, peak 30, headwall 30, teo II 30. 5+ other full vert patches ~40 acres
6. Summit CO Region 220: Abasin 120, Loveland 45, Breck 55
7. Fernie region 210: Fernie 110, Castle 100
8. Kicking Horse Region 155: KH 115, Lake Louise 40
9. Aspen Highlands 190: highlands bowl 85, teremity 60, olympic 25, lower mountain chutes 20
10. Alyeska 180: N Face 130, headwall/teacup 35, max & below 15

 

[JoeSchmoe]

Kicking Horse Region 155: KH 115, Lake Louise 40

What about Sunshine Village? Seems weird to call Banff the Kicking Horse region.

 

[DanoT]

What about Sunshine Village? Seems weird to call Banff the Kicking Horse region.

The problem with the 45min drive from accommodation to several ski resorts criteria is that there are no ski resorts in Western Canada that are less than an hour apart. For travel to KH in one direction and LL in another one would have to stay in Field B.C. and no one on a ski trip is ever going to do that!

And for Fernie/Castle one would need to stay in one of the Crowsnest Pass towns....not likely.

 

[crosscountry]

And Whistler is in a "region" of its own.