The challenge of Level 3

[Loki1]

I'm looking for thoughts on a question. The question is, why do people struggle with passing the PSIA level 3 exam? I have my own thoughts on why. What I am really looking for are opinions from those that are working towards their LV3 and have failed the exam process and those that have passed and what was the main catalyst that allowed them to be successful in their exam.

 

[markojp]

I think there have been a few threads that went deeply into this topic. I don't know that too much will have changed since the last thread.

 

[Loki1]

I think there have been a few threads that went deeply into this topic. I don't know that too much will have changed since the last thread.

Sorry I haven't seen those threads. Can I search for them? What are your thoughts markjp? Maybe I should explain my thoughts first.

 

[Erik Timmerman]

It's because skiing is hard.

For me what helped the most was deciding to learn to love bumps and get good at them. Be good at skiing bumps.

 

[LiquidFeet]

There are several active members here who may enjoy going over their most recent thoughts on this subject. @Loki, you are a PSIA trainer or examiner, yes? You deal with candidates' issues all the time?

 

[Mike King]

Good question @Loki1. I'm intending to take the Level 3 ski exam for the first time in March. I started this whole quest 7 years ago when I retired from my career and set an objective of skiing at the Level 3 standard. I thought it would take a couple of years, but the more I've worked on my skiing, the further it seemed I was from the standard.

In many respects, I'm atypical of a Level 3 candidate. I'm a (very) part-time ski instructor. As a result, I have a lot of time to work on my skiing and to train for the exam. I have financial resources, so I can hire a coach (a former Danish demo team member and Rookies Academy trainer). And I'm old -- 63, but I'll be with a few weeks of turning 64 at the time I take the exam.

Personally, working full-time as a ski instructor and taking the exam seems to me to be a huge challenge. When do you find the time to train? There's no doubt that teaching can help your understanding of skiing biomechanics, but teaching lower level students only yields so much benefit -- and gaining the high end understanding to benefit MA and teaching level 8 and 9 students is pretty elusive. Let alone use that understanding to improve your own skiing.

Clinics at your resort can be a big help, but as Ann Schorling related to me many Level 3 candidates do too much clinicing -- they fail to master the things they were working on in the past clinic before going to the next one. And the variety of voices can make everything a muddle.

For the years I've been in Aspen, my objective was to have more training hours than teaching hours at the end of the season. This season I've cancelled participation in every Cert 3 clinic. I want one voice right now. And to work on anchoring the material that I've worked on with my coach.

Also, there's a lot of stuff that gets fed to folk in clinics and in the locker room that are adages, myths, misunderstandings, and/or coaching cues rather than biomechanics and physics. Personally, I had a rudimentary understanding of skiing, but what has stitched it together for me was the online content of @tomgellie. Still, some examiners are very dogmatic in their belief system. Some are willing to have you show them that their beliefs may not be complete. But there are items out of my coaching that I'd never show to an examiner -- some. of it is so challenging to the common belief that I doubt you would ever get a hearing of it. Why do I say this? Because my coach, a highly regarded trainer and examiner, won't discuss the topics with his peers as he doesn't believe that they would be receptive to it.

In summary, Level 3 is a huge undertaking. It requires a lot of study and training. It's difficult to balance work with preparation for the exam. So it's not surprising that many attempt it but fail.

Mike

 

[BS Slarver]

A PSIA quote

those who can handle the easiest groomed black runs to experts who can apply a variety of turn shapes to control speed on any type of terrain, in any snow condition.

ANY type of terrain in ANY snow condition is usually the breaking point for most in my opinion. Most who fail don’t have this down.
Training on the worst days when no one is out in steep ice foggy conditions and crappy slop
will go a long way

 

[markojp]

I think there's much to be said for 'too much clinicing', and not enough directed free skiing. What is directed? Skiing with intent, taking some casual video, mileage to apply the two or maybe three cues that really have helped change your skiing in all terrain and conditions.

Teaching wise, for many, the MA just isn't there, so when it's time to teach, there's just nothing to share. Much half understood, canned, warmed over clinicing experience gets passed along. Most candidates over think their teaching because they don't understand the basic physics of skiing.

Backgrounds... people are coming to the exam process from all over the map. People who've been coached and have somewhat accomplished ski backgrounds a la race or similar programs have a huge advantage in the skiing component of the exam.

Athleticism... does count, as does basic ski fitness, and overall physical condition, and skiing with a bunch of extra weight makes everything harder. Skiing is a sport at higher levels of performance. Prep off season to be better than you were the last.

Gear... no more compensating for poorly fitted and aligned boots. You just can't get away with it at L3 like you might have at L2.

Last, but not least, the head game. Too much concern with doing what you think 'they' want. Do what you know, have tested, and believe to be of value.

 

[LiquidFeet]

Good question @Loki1. I'm intending to take the Level 3 ski exam for the first time in March. I started this whole quest 7 years ago when I retired from my career and set an objective of skiing at the Level 3 standard. I thought it would take a couple of years, but the more I've worked on my skiing, the further it seemed I was from the standard.

In many respects, I'm atypical of a Level 3 candidate. I'm a (very) part-time ski instructor. As a result, I have a lot of time to work on my skiing and to train for the exam. I have financial resources, so I can hire a coach (a former Danish demo team member and Rookies Academy trainer). And I'm old -- 63, but I'll be with a few weeks of turning 64 at the time I take the exam.

Personally, working full-time as a ski instructor and taking the exam seems to me to be a huge challenge. When do you find the time to train? There's no doubt that teaching can help your understanding of skiing biomechanics, but teaching lower level students only yields so much benefit -- and gaining the high end understanding to benefit MA and teaching level 8 and 9 students is pretty elusive. Let alone use that understanding to improve your own skiing.

Clinics at your resort can be a big help, but as Ann Schorling related to me many Level 3 candidates do too much clinicing -- they fail to master the things they were working on in the past clinic before going to the next one. And the variety of voices can make everything a muddle.

For the years I've been in Aspen, my objective was to have more training hours than teaching hours at the end of the season. This season I've cancelled participation in every Cert 3 clinic. I want one voice right now. And to work on anchoring the material that I've worked on with my coach.

Also, there's a lot of stuff that gets fed to folk in clinics and in the locker room that are adages, myths, misunderstandings, and/or coaching cues rather than biomechanics and physics. Personally, I had a rudimentary understanding of skiing, but what has stitched it together for me was the online content of @tomgellie. Still, some examiners are very dogmatic in their belief system. Some are willing to have you show them that their beliefs may not be complete. But there are items out of my coaching that I'd never show to an examiner -- some. of it is so challenging to the common belief that I doubt you would ever get a hearing of it. Why do I say this? Because my coach, a highly regarded trainer and examiner, won't discuss the topics with his peers as he doesn't believe that they would be receptive to it.

In summary, Level 3 is a huge undertaking. It requires a lot of study and training. It's difficult to balance work with preparation for the exam. So it's not surprising that many attempt it but fail.

Mike

Best post of the decade on certification IMO.

 

[Erik Timmerman]

Good question @Loki1. I'm intending to take the Level 3 ski exam for the first time in March. I started this whole quest 7 years ago when I retired from my career and set an objective of skiing at the Level 3 standard. I thought it would take a couple of years, but the more I've worked on my skiing, the further it seemed I was from the standard.

In many respects, I'm atypical of a Level 3 candidate. I'm a (very) part-time ski instructor. As a result, I have a lot of time to work on my skiing and to train for the exam. I have financial resources, so I can hire a coach (a former Danish demo team member and Rookies Academy trainer). And I'm old -- 63, but I'll be with a few weeks of turning 64 at the time I take the exam.

Personally, working full-time as a ski instructor and taking the exam seems to me to be a huge challenge. When do you find the time to train? There's no doubt that teaching can help your understanding of skiing biomechanics, but teaching lower level students only yields so much benefit -- and gaining the high end understanding to benefit MA and teaching level 8 and 9 students is pretty elusive. Let alone use that understanding to improve your own skiing.

Clinics at your resort can be a big help, but as Ann Schorling related to me many Level 3 candidates do too much clinicing -- they fail to master the things they were working on in the past clinic before going to the next one. And the variety of voices can make everything a muddle.

For the years I've been in Aspen, my objective was to have more training hours than teaching hours at the end of the season. This season I've cancelled participation in every Cert 3 clinic. I want one voice right now. And to work on anchoring the material that I've worked on with my coach.

Also, there's a lot of stuff that gets fed to folk in clinics and in the locker room that are adages, myths, misunderstandings, and/or coaching cues rather than biomechanics and physics. Personally, I had a rudimentary understanding of skiing, but what has stitched it together for me was the online content of @tomgellie. Still, some examiners are very dogmatic in their belief system. Some are willing to have you show them that their beliefs may not be complete. But there are items out of my coaching that I'd never show to an examiner -- some. of it is so challenging to the common belief that I doubt you would ever get a hearing of it. Why do I say this? Because my coach, a highly regarded trainer and examiner, won't discuss the topics with his peers as he doesn't believe that they would be receptive to it.

In summary, Level 3 is a huge undertaking. It requires a lot of study and training. It's difficult to balance work with preparation for the exam. So it's not surprising that many attempt it but fail.

Mike

Since we aren't in an exam (maybe this should be a different thread) tell me what you wouldn't dare to share with an examiner. I don't think I've seen anything from TG that is shockingly revolutionary, but I don't subscribe so...

 

[Steve]

I'll play.

After transitioning to a left ski at the top of the turn, drop your left shoulder straight down. Drop the hammer with your arm and hand.

This to put pressure on the new outside ski.

 

[Steve]

Go to about :33 to see a WC skier doing a drill to work on this movement.

 

[Mike King]

Since we aren't in an exam (maybe this should be a different thread) tell me what you wouldn't dare to share with an examiner. I don't think I've seen anything from TG that is shockingly revolutionary, but I don't subscribe so...

Here’s two for you. Using upper body rotation in the initiation of the turn. Bringing the hip through in the top half of the turn. From the Dane, not from Gellie.

Tom talks about tipping the feet diagonally back. A PSIA-RM examiner did not believe either that that was the way that the foot tips nor that it made a difference in the degree of angulation that could be achieved. My training partner had to demonstrate to the examiner how it works. He at least was willing to be shown — others are not so willing to accept it.

 

[crgildart]

It's because skiing is hard.

For me what helped the most was deciding to learn to love bumps and get good at them. Be good at skiing bumps.

Glen Plake got it on his first try.

 

[Steve]

My example also wasn't from TG, but the use of the arms and other upper body movements is something he discusses in depth.

I know someone who was failed in their Level 2 Teaching exam, children's module, for telling an imaginary student, who loved to paint, to use her arms in a movement similar to a brush stroke. "You taught an upper body movement, I'm sorry I had to fail you."

 

[Erik Timmerman]

Can you teach someone in your group to do one of those? If you can and it makes them ski better, you are golden. It beats telling them to stick pretend $100 bills in the cuffs of their boots. Don't do that one.

 

[Mike King]

Here’s the thing that should matter — what happens to ski performance. Yet some folk are so rigid in their belief system that they won’t believe what they see the ski actually doing.

one of the great things about Aspen is that we have high level trainers from around the world. This can open your mind and belief system to different ideas. Still, many of our instructors and trainers are not so open to alternative views..,

 

[markojp]

Here’s two for you. Using upper body rotation in the initiation of the turn. Bringing the hip through in the top half of the turn. From the Dane, not from Gellie.
.

That's something Takao Murayama does.

 

[Mike King]

That's something Takao Murayama does.

Yep. I discovered the hip thing last season. I then discussed it with my coach and he talked about how transformative it had been with him the fall before when he skied for several weeks with Takao in China.

That being said, I then discussed with with a former demo team member, who was demo team in both alpine and telemark. He was completely dismissive of the concept and thought it was dangerous to the health of your joints... BTW, he is probably one of the most incredible pure athletes I know.

Just to show you, there's closed and growth mindsets in all of us.

Mike

 

[tomgellie]

Yep. I discovered the hip thing last season. I then discussed it with my coach and he talked about how transformative it had been with him the fall before when he skied for several weeks with Takao in China.

That being said, I then discussed with with a former demo team member, who was demo team in both alpine and telemark. He was completely dismissive of the concept and thought it was dangerous to the health of your joints... BTW, he is probably one of the most incredible pure athletes I know.

Just to show you, there's closed and growth mindsets in all of us.

Mike

This is also what I find.
my take on someone who has a strong unwavering opinion is to consider that this is one end of a spectrum. And there are always the two ends of the spectrum. So I take it on board and use it to remind myself that I like to be open to wavering along the spectrum. This is how I learn. If someone really believes in a truth then there is probably good evidence within that truth to them that will help your understanding. It’s rewarding to dig deeper into why they believe so strongly aboutsomething andwhy they would not consider anything different. Much of the time there is an emotional charge linked there. Eg life threatening event, social pressure, childhood upbringing, idolizing. I know at times I catch myself whenever I get worked up about a topic and realize it’s Because really it’s challenging me as a person and what I stand for.And when I let that go and be open to learning “whoosh” break through.