The Disappearance of the 21.5 Adult Ski Boot

[Philpug]

This thread is for the general discussion of the Article The Disappearance of the 21.5 Adult Ski Boot. Please add to the discussion here.

 

[Tricia]

Really well said.
Interesting that we were in Utah last month and took two women in our group to a bootfitting. One was a 21.5, the other was a 22.5
It wasn't too long ago that it was difficult to find a true 22.5.

Glad you're bringing this up.

 

[skibum4ever]

View attachment 214379
This thread is for the general discussion of the Article The Disappearance of the 21.5 Adult Ski Boot. Please add to the discussion here.

Good article. I hope they continue to support 22.5 which is what I use.

 

[fatbob]

Why does the problem need to be cost? What's to stop at least one manufacturer pressing out 21.5 clogs from an old mould? OK it's still doing those skiers a disservice but at least they still have something.

In a world in which the boot industry has willingly introduced the SKU/spares complexity of BOA the cost of inventory to carry one more size doesn't feel insurmountable either. Maybe the pixie footed need to start looking like more of a cash cow to get appropriate attention.

So where do these people go now beyond eBay? Strolz, Daleboot or kids' boots or out of the sport entirely?

 

[Philpug]

What's to stop at least one manufacturer pressing out 21.5 clogs from an old mould?

Thats a very good question, one that I have asked. I think it is better to offer a carry over boot than none, Tecnica did that with the "Inferno 90" for a few color waves. But in talking to a few product managers when I was researching this article, they do not want to dilute a new collection with an older model.

So where do these people go now beyond eBay? Strolz, Daleboot or kids' boots or out of the sport entirely?

I don't think either of these brands offer true 21's.

 

[onenerdykid]

Cost is a problem because a size 21/21.5 shell mold & last and cuff mold & last are just as expensive as any other size (in total, about 85k-100k€). These costs get put into every boot a brand makes, so it’s making all products that much more expensive.

If a brand is only producing one hundred pairs globally (believe me when I say I’m being generous there) size 21/21.5 boots a year then yes, the brand is right to question such an investment. It’s quite hard to justify to a finance board spending this amount of money (just on molds, not anything else yet) for such a small quantity of boots. We’ve managed to do it, but I can totally understand why other brands won’t touch it.

 

[BLiP]

My wife has been in a 22.5 for years but has routinely complained about her foot sliding. Our fitter had her try a 21.5 Lange RS this fall. As soon as she got it on foot, a smile formed because she knew it was right. I’m excited to see her ski in a properly fitting boot this year and I’m thankful that some of the manufacturers still offer it as an option (and that our fitter actually had one in stock).

 

[AmyPJ]

Ironically (or not) I just visited Brent Amsbury and guess what he put me in after years of absolute depressing frustration in 22.5s? A 21.5! If this new Lange RS SC works for me, I guess I’d better consider ordering some backup pairs. I’m not a tiny person, but I have tiny ankles that measure 21.5. I’m dying to get out in these boots to see how they feel.

 

[Pat AKA mustski]

I think the article makes an excellent point - moms control the family pocketbook. It’s a fair bet that if mom doesn’t enjoy skiing, the family will not ski. Is there a reason that the molds used for junior girls boots can’t be used for small women’s boots? Most females reach full height, leg length, shoe size by the age of 13. They grow stronger and gain muscle so would need a stiffer boot but, I don’t see why the other dimensions would change.

 

[Near Nyquist]

I think the article makes an excellent point - moms control the family pocketbook. It’s a fair bet that if mom doesn’t enjoy skiing, the family will not ski. Is there a reason that the molds used for junior girls boots can’t be used for small women’s boots? Most females reach full height, leg length, shoe size by the age of 13. They grow stronger and gain muscle so would need a stiffer boot but, I don’t see why the other dimensions would change.

See this post

The Disappearance of the 21.5 Adult Ski Boot

This thread is for the general discussion of the Article The Disappearance of the 21.5 Adult Ski Boot. Please add to the discussion here.

www.skitalk.com

it’s all about the Benjamin’s $$$

 

[Tony Storaro]

I think the article makes an excellent point - moms control the family pocketbook. It’s a fair bet that if mom doesn’t enjoy skiing, the family will not ski.

Absolutely. But then we are facing this fact:

If a brand is only producing one hundred pairs globally

Obviously the vast majority of moms ski in bigger boots.
Don't get me wrong, I feel your pain, my wife skis in 22.5 and even these are hard to find but I understand the point of the companies too.

 

[Brian Finch]

It wasn't too long ago that it was difficult to find a true 22.5.

We had to import a 22.5 WCR from EU as Head didn’t bring any to NA this season.

 

[wnyskier]

I'm a little confused on why there is the lack demand for 21.5 adult boots. This goes back some years, but didn't Lange and others produce sizes (and interesting colors) for the Japanese market as there was high demand for smaller sized adult boots? Has that changed? Asia still makes up a significant proportion of the global market and I doubt the feet of Asian women have gotten significantly larger in recent years....

 

[onenerdykid]

I'm a little confused on why there is the lack demand for 21.5 adult boots. This goes back some years, but didn't Lange and others produce sizes (and interesting colors) for the Japanese market as there was high demand for smaller sized adult boots? Has that changed? Asia still makes up a significant proportion of the global market and I doubt the feet of Asian women have gotten significantly larger in recent years....

Europe is 60-70% of the skiing market. If Europe doesn't need it, the rest of the world usually has to just deal with it. And Europe is barely understanding the need for 22s, let alone 21s. For Europe, the only interest in size 21 is for junior race, not women's boots. Europe wants more women's 27s not 21s.

The skiing industry is nowhere near being consumer direct and, as such, we are completely tied to what retailers order. If retailers don't order it, brands won't produce it. In order to produce a certain product, every brand has to meet a minimum order quantity (MOQ) on an SKU before the factory will even turn on the machine. Size 22 boots usually don't even reach the MOQ target and I have to fight to keep these boots alive every production cycle. Size 21 boots are basically produced out of our passion for skiing. The bean counters and the factories want nothing to do with these sizes.

What makes the issue even more complicated is that our boot factory is running at full capacity. Every time we set aside a day to make the 21s we want to produce, it basically means we are not producing more 26s or 27s of a certain model. Believe me when I say I have to fight to keep these small sizes alive.

 

[otto]

Colors yes, sizes no! There is not a country and a wholly owned subsidiary of any of the boot suppliers where building separate and specific molds that would pencil out financially.

Back to my above answer . . . Any existing mold can be injected with most any color to "specialize" a trend in any market. Most suppliers have learned the lesson the hard way that those extra SKU's can turn into a liability almost over night. Back in the day when the Japanese market for ski gear exploded late 80's early 90's, some simple minded folks started to play into the Japanese market assuming that the unbridled growth would go on forever. The problem that developed was that the behavior of the Japanese consumer was to acquire lots of stuff to improve your image with your friends and co workers. The market exploded not because skiing exploded. It went off because having ski gear in your apartment or home made you look cool. The market corrected itself years ago now, and Japan has returned to being a pimple on the ski worlds ass. The crime in the fake Japanese ski economy was that a good portion of those products sold has ended up unused in landfills. Somewhat moot point because much of that gear was pre shaped skis and no one would be using that stuff today anyhow. Conceptually this idea of fashion trends or social trends driving a market is not so far fetched. Does anyone remember the urban trends of puffy coats and ski googles as a fashion accessory in urban areas with rappers and those that emulated them. Like the Japanese ski market trend, most of those puffy's and google being worn sideways on the end user, ever saw mountains.

Having spent time in the ski business in Northern California, I can say that the shape of Japanese feet calls for some interesting custom modifications of boots to bring comfort to the boot fit.

 

[Lauren]

I'm a little confused on why there is the lack demand for 21.5 adult boots.

Simple...lack of small enough feet (in correctly fitted ski boots).

From a quick Google search: Analysis of 1.2 Million Foot Scans

 

[otto]

Europe is 60-70% of the skiing market. If Europe doesn't need it, the rest of the world usually has to just deal with it. And Europe is barely understanding the need for 22s, let alone 21s. For Europe, the only interest in size 21 is for junior race, not women's boots. Europe wants more women's 27s not 21s.

The skiing industry is nowhere near being consumer direct and, as such, we are completely tied to what retailers order. If retailers don't order it, brands won't produce it. In order to produce a certain product, every brand has to meet a minimum order quantity (MOQ) on an SKU before the factory will even turn on the machine. Size 22 boots usually don't even reach the MOQ target and I have to fight to keep these boots alive every production cycle. Size 21 boots are basically produced out of our passion for skiing. The bean counters and the factories want nothing to do with these sizes.

What makes the issue even more complicated is that our boot factory is running at full capacity. Every time we set aside a day to make the 21s we want to produce, it basically means we are not producing more 26s or 27s of a certain model. Believe me when I say I have to fight to keep these small sizes alive.

Great point to show who is driving the bus!

Also the gang out here should know that it is not anyones fault that we have disconnect between 1. The reality of the market ( how many 21.5 feet are out there looking for boots ) 2. or the financial difficulties of producing the fringe boots sizes in multiple models by the supplier that has every right to make a profit in business, 3. The worldwide dealer community that has no idea how many 21.5's or 31.5's to order because when you do not have the product on your shelf no retailer will count the number sales lost by those feet that came in with those sizes that could not be serviced. The retailers don't get it and those that do should be rewarded and those that don't should be the first business's to be forced into closing by online or direct to market sales. You can lead a horse to water, but you cant get them to reference boots on the fringe for fear of getting stuck with carryover. And another point to finish with is that there are more than 75% of the active skier market are skiing on boots that are too big. So even if the skier has a 21.5, most shops have no problem over sizing that skier because they did not commit to having the 21.5 on their shelves.

We have been stocking 21.5's since they were available and selling out of them every year. We rarely carry over any of our 21.5 stock.

 

[KingGrump]

The lack of demand in 21s & 22s goes back to the fact that most skiers are in boots that are too big.

The average consumer will keep putting their feet into boots until they find one that is comfortable. Which translated to be oversized boots and reduced demand for the smaller boots.

A women I usually ski with first shown up six years ago with a pair of big 25.5 boots. She is now skiing in her third pair of 22.5 boot. She bought the 25.5 because it was comfy and on sale.
Another was fitted by a well known fitter in LA in a 23.5. We just right sized her into a 22.5 couple weeks back.

Information, education and experience for the consumer can make the difference.

 

[Smear]

Ironically (or not) I just visited Brent Amsbury and guess what he put me in after years of absolute depressing frustration in 22.5s? A 21.5! If this new Lange RS SC works for me, I guess I’d better consider ordering some backup pairs. I’m not a tiny person, but I have tiny ankles that measure 21.5. I’m dying to get out in these boots to see how they feel.

I don't think you need to worry. As long as there are U12 and U14 racers coming into the world there will be a steady supply of boots like the rossi and lange SC in small sizes. Have both 21, 22 and 23 in our house, can ship over the atlanic once the 10 year old grows out of his 21 ;-)

The problem here seems to be that these types of boots do not come in female spesific colours, fake fur at the top of the liner or with freeride styling. Seems like a non-problem to me... Now if you need a touring boot in size 21 I guess you have real trouble?

 

[Smear]

I guess me and @ScotsSkier could also complain. Men's specific ski boots in 24,5 are not easy to find in a store. At least we can choose between race styling or female styling with fake fur. So we have two choices vs the women with small feet who only can choose the race styling...