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The Four Fundamentals

TheApprentice

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Yep. It's a resultant of allowing one's CoM to move toward and over one's BoS.

Not really, no. It's pretty easy to have your COM move over your BOS and never generate any kind of counter. Yes it is very easy to create some ca/cb while moving the COM in, but is not necessarily a result of.
On top of which, if you're not careful then you'll end up hipdumping in an effort to get the COM inside the turn while making some ca/cb at the start, then losing it as the turn progresses.
 
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Steve

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Why ski on the ball of the foot? (Yes, I understand levering at the ball vs. closing the ankle.)

My wording isn't good in that I don't suggest skiing on the ball of the foot. There are times that there will be pressure on the ball of the foot, just as there are times there will be more pressure on the heel, but we certainly don't ski on the heels of our feet.
 

LiquidFeet

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My wording isn't good in that I don't suggest skiing on the ball of the foot. There are times that there will be pressure on the ball of the foot, just as there are times there will be more pressure on the heel, but we certainly don't ski on the heels of our feet.
I do. Front of the heel, back of the arch. Right below the tibia. And I'm not aft.
 
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JESinstr

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My wording isn't good in that I don't suggest skiing on the ball of the foot. There are times that there will be pressure on the ball of the foot, just as there are times there will be more pressure on the heel, but we certainly don't ski on the heels of our feet.

I mentioned this in a post sometime back but since the foot is widest around the ball of the foot, do you think that it is the width of the foot when up on its side that creates the sensation vs actually pressing on the ball of the foot? Just throwing it out there.
 
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Steve

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Bottom line is if I want to pressure the tip it's going to come from the front of the foot, including the ankle pressuring the cuff. I don't want to lever onto my toes, but as you say @JESinstr the side of the front of the foot is an area that will be pressured in the beginning of the turn.
 

HardDaysNight

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Both kinds of counter come from the hip, rather than the shoulders. You'll find that world cup skiers don't really ca in freeskiing because they can get away with it. They're far from human. Though if you take some clips from their race runs you'll see a lot of counter. As for more freeski people such as Reilly and Paul, I see it as they're trying to make their turns look good. The kinds of turns that they like to do (I like to call them demo turns) are generally pretty long and often they're grinding towards the end. No matter how much counter you start with or try to keep throughout the turn you'll always lose it if you try to keep the turn for as long as they do.

As for fore-aft I've always been pretty central in my turns, and instead have focused a lot on counter, as it allows me to grip where I otherwise would not, such as icy steeps.
I've found that counter is more important for grip, and that fore-aft is more for bending the ski at specific points in the turn.
Very pleased to see this and agree completely. In the past when I have made the same points the cognoscenti have scornfully dismissed them. As an exercise in instruction through self discovery, try skiing a steepish, icy pitch with the early hip rotation into the turn that seems to be recommended by some of the new instructor classes who make videos; then ski it actively creating early and strong counter at the top of the turn. See which works better.
Counter "Happens"
By this I assume you mean that “skiing into counter” as widely touted by the PSIA is how counter happens. Try that on an injected course and you won’t make it through the first two turns. Good technical skiers actively create counter early in the turn- see above.
 

Jjmd

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When skiing icy or injected surfaces, more CB and CA are needed to properly engage the outside ski, as opposed to the pristine consistent conditions shown in many of the Reilly, Lorenz etc. videos. Not saying they can’t perform on crap surfaces but on most of skiing shown they don’t have to dig into their bag of tricks. Just embellishing HardDaysNight’s point. Totally agree CA and CB not taught correctly by PSIA.
 

geepers

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Platform angle is king, queen, president, poohbah, and dictator for life of grip.

Yeah, nah. You can have all the platform angle you want but if your weight is forward as the edge angle and pressure builds your tails are going to slide. Equally you can be centered on the ski (for that part of the rurn) and without platform angle the grip is likely to be sketchy.

Maybe both members of the Grip Committee... And I suspect a few others have a seat at that table, depending on conditions.
 

markojp

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Yeah, nah. You can have all the platform angle you want but if your weight is forward as the edge angle and pressure builds your tails are going to slide. Equally you can be centered on the ski (for that part of the rurn) and without platform angle the grip is likely to be sketchy.

Maybe both members of the Grip Committee... And I suspect a few others have a seat at that table, depending on conditions.

IMHO, forward is down the hill or moving toward the forces you feel underfoot... has nothing to do with crushing-the-front-of-the-cuff 'forward'. Let's just agree to disagree if that's disagreeable. :)
 

markojp

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Not really, no. It's pretty easy to have your COM move over your BOS and never generate any kind of counter. Yes it is very easy to create some ca/cb while moving the COM in, but is not necessarily a result of.
On top of which, if you're not careful then you'll end up hipdumping in an effort to get the COM inside the turn while making some ca/cb at the start, then losing it as the turn progresses.

Hip dumping kills platform angle. I just don't like the word 'counter' because many misinterpret it as a pose... and as you say, hip dumping and spine twisting is all too often the result. I like to think of aligning myself to move TO pressure, which can be applied to the nuances of turn radius, snow surface, etc.... if I move 'to' pressure as I near transition, angulation occurs as a resultant. I can make sma, deliberate adjusts to increase angulation and gain even stronger platform angle as my skis flatten at the bottom of the arc/early transition. I can then choose how and when I move (or am moved to) to the new outside ski. I think in my brevity and not being able to show what I mean on snow, folks tend to assume stupidity. This is probably why instruction threads are frustrating and why I'm hesitant to add much because it will always be bent around the axle of another's verbiage.
 

markojp

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Yeah, nah. You can have all the platform angle you want but if your weight is forward as the edge angle and pressure builds your tails are going to slide. Equally you can be centered on the ski (for that part of the rurn) and without platform angle the grip is likely to be sketchy.

Maybe both members of the Grip Committee... And I suspect a few others have a seat at that table, depending on conditions.

Do you think platform angle only happens at one particular point in the arc? I don't at all. I also don't believe in camping out hanging over the cuff after apex, but maybe that's just me.
 

geepers

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Do you think platform angle only happens at one particular point in the arc? I don't at all. I also don't believe in camping out hanging over the cuff after apex, but maybe that's just me.

Wow. Not sure how we got to "platform angle only happens at one particular point in the arc" and "camping out hanging over the cuff after apex" and "crushing-the-front-of-the-cuff".

In answer to your questions...
No. So we seem to be in agreement.
Neither do I. So we seem to be in agreement. Then again, I also don't believe that the only folk who are forward of where they need to be are the ones crushing the front cuff. Firmer snow - more honest snow - is a great revealer.
 

LiquidFeet

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....This is probably why instruction threads are frustrating and why I'm hesitant to add much because it will always be bent around the axle of another's verbiage.

Well put. Metaphors are great communicators.

But misunderstandings happen anyway, anywhere, when we speak, no matter how much we try to be understood, not just here on this forum. I've had to deal with this all my professional life as a studio art teacher. Show them, and they get it. Tell them and you get a multiplicity of understandings of what you said they should do, even if you write it down so the words are indisputable.

Language isn't clear and precise. It's fuzzy.
 

markojp

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simple, clear language, and a great demo usually do the trick.
 

markojp

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yep, it is a necessary condition for grip, but there still is an important part of fore/aft pressure that's part of it too.

yes, I do know this. I'm a bit perturbed that the assumption by some is that I don't. There's a pretty rational order to most fundamental lists, and each in that list are not mutually exclusive. Platform angle cannot be maintained without accurate fore/aft management.... and visa versa at higher levels of snow/ski interaction and outcomes.
 
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LiquidFeet

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yes, I do know this. I'm a bit perturbed that the assumption by some is that I don't. There's a pretty rational order to most fundamental lists, and each in that list are not mutually exclusive. Platform angle cannot be maintained without accurate fore/aft management.

There is a tendency on this subforum for people to explain things as if others don't know it. I tend to get mad if someone explains stuff, supposedly to me directly, that they should realize I know. It happens more frequently than it should.

But sometimes they may be just explaining it to themselves, finding the right words, clarifying new or previously unfocused thoughts they are now having, while posting it, and it comes across as a patronizing response when it's not meant as such.

However it may be a bit Pollyanna to see it this way.
 
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Steve

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One of the Five Agreements. "Don't take anything personally."
 

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