The Four Fundamentals

[JESinstr]

Counter "Happens"

By this I assume you mean that “skiing into counter” as widely touted by the PSIA is how counter happens. Try that on an injected course and you won’t make it through the first two turns. Good technical skiers actively create counter early in the turn- see above.

Definitely, there are all kinds of and implementations of counter. I was referring to when am carving a turn. My pelvis counters in response to the building of edge angle and the need to align with the outside ski. What I call a structural counter.

 

[JESinstr]

Bottom line is if I want to pressure the tip it's going to come from the front of the foot, including the ankle pressuring the cuff. I don't want to lever onto my toes, but as you say @JESinstr the side of the front of the foot is an area that will be pressured in the beginning of the turn.

It's not that I disagree, but I give "the ankle pressuring cuff" providing boot shell leverage a lot more credit than "honorable mention".

As I activate the "Flex Complex" (ankle-knee-hip) to set up a "Strong Leg" situation going into the turn, I am killing 2 birds with one stone leveraging the shin-boot interface.

If you ask me to pressure the ball of the foot, there is a good chance that I might end up raising my heel to do so and we surely don't want that.

 

[Mike King]

yes, I do know this. I'm a bit perturbed that the assumption by some is that I don't. There's a pretty rational order to most fundamental lists, and each in that list are not mutually exclusive. Platform angle cannot be maintained without accurate fore/aft management.... and visa versa at higher levels of snow/ski interaction and outcomes.

I wasn't suggesting that you didn't know this at all, so please take no offense from it. Just like everything else in skiing, everything is interrelated. So while we can try to isolate stuff by the 3, 4, 5, or n fundamentals, all of the stuff that's isolated is also interrelated and affected by the others...

 

[Mike King]

yes, I do know this. I'm a bit perturbed that the assumption by some is that I don't. There's a pretty rational order to most fundamental lists, and each in that list are not mutually exclusive. Platform angle cannot be maintained without accurate fore/aft management.... and visa versa at higher levels of snow/ski interaction and outcomes.

After thinking about this for a few minutes, I don't think I get what you are describing. It seems to me that I can establish a critical platform angle when I'm centered, forward, or aft. So it doesn't seem to me that the platform angle is dependent on fore/aft pressure control. Might you elaborate?

What does seem to me to be the case is that directing pressure along the length of the ski has a pretty profound impact on whether the tail follows the same path as the tip. If I'm in the center of the ski, then the tail does follow the tip. If I'm on the tip then the tail will take a wider path than the tip. If I'm on the tail, then the ski will tend to go straight, although being aft will also provide grip in the finish of the turn.

So, what am I missing in what you are linking together?

Mike

 

[François Pugh]

After thinking about this for a few minutes, I don't think I get what you are describing. It seems to me that I can establish a critical platform angle when I'm centered, forward, or aft. So it doesn't seem to me that the platform angle is dependent on fore/aft pressure control. Might you elaborate?

What does seem to me to be the case is that directing pressure along the length of the ski has a pretty profound impact on whether the tail follows the same path as the tip. If I'm in the center of the ski, then the tail does follow the tip. If I'm on the tip then the tail will take a wider path than the tip. If I'm on the tail, then the ski will tend to go straight, although being aft will also provide grip in the finish of the turn.

So, what am I missing in what you are linking together?

Mike

I've learned/noticed that as the turn progresses, becoming tighter until the apex and then becoming wider thereafter, that at the limit of what I can accomplish, I need to direct more pressure to the tip and forebody of the ski as it goes through the apex, or they will slip out. Later, as the tails go through the apex, they need the pressure as they go through the apex in order to hold the turn, pressure the tips can now spare.

 

[markojp]

After thinking about this for a few minutes, I don't think I get what you are describing. It seems to me that I can establish a critical platform angle when I'm centered, forward, or aft. So it doesn't seem to me that the platform angle is dependent on fore/aft pressure control. Might you elaborate?

What does seem to me to be the case is that directing pressure along the length of the ski has a pretty profound impact on whether the tail follows the same path as the tip. If I'm in the center of the ski, then the tail does follow the tip. If I'm on the tip then the tail will take a wider path than the tip. If I'm on the tail, then the ski will tend to go straight, although being aft will also provide grip in the finish of the turn.

So, what am I missing in what you are linking together?

Mike

If you have a lesson with a chronically back and in advanced skier who's very likely flummoxed as to why skiing steeper pitches takes so much energy, I like to work first on how to keep their feet under them and engage the ankle and feel where there feet are and what they're feeling... initially, the focus is fore/aft, then we work on lateral footwork and sensations allowing ourselves to move toward pressure and establishing platform angle. But as you know, progress is rarely perfectly linear, and often we need to get back to fore/aft when folks get back as their skis move into/toward the fall line. I do understand what you're saying though. Is it fair to ask you if you're viewing the issue within the higher level concept of milking the ski that you're currently playing with in your own skiing? If so, I'd say that milking assumes that a skier is well aware of, and in control of the relation of BoS and CoM.... you're proficient enough to play. Most skiers we coach, even very good ones, aren't quite ready for that. Some are, but that's generally a private lesson or divisional training group stuff.. and more competent racers of course. And I'm sure you have enough talented ski school staff at snowmass that this might be on the regular training menu for folks preparing for divisional staff or nat'l tryouts.... much more fundamental 5 land, that magic carpet that ties the whole room together.

 

[Mike King]

If you have a lesson with a chronically back and in advanced skier who's very likely flummoxed as to why skiing steeper pitches takes so much energy, I like to work first on how to keep their feet under them and engage the ankle and feel where there feet are and what they're feeling... initially, the focus is fore/aft, then we work on lateral footwork and sensations allowing ourselves to move toward pressure and establishing platform angle. But as you know, progress is rarely perfectly linear, and often we need to get back to fore/aft when folks get back as their skis move into/toward the fall line. I do understand what you're saying though. Is it fair to ask you if you're viewing the issue within the higher level concept of milking the ski that you're currently playing with in your own skiing? If so, I'd say that milking assumes that a skier is well aware of, and in control of the relation of BoS and CoM.... you're proficient enough to play. Most skiers we coach, even very good ones, aren't quite ready for that. Some are, but that's generally a private lesson or divisional training group stuff.. and more competent racers of course. And I'm sure you have enough talented ski school staff at snowmass that this might be on the regular training menu for folks preparing for divisional staff or nat'l tryouts.... much more fundamental 5 land, that magic carpet that ties the whole room together.

Thanks Mark. Getting folk to move toward pressure is a big deal and is something I'm struggling to incorporate into my own skiing.

 

[Tom Holtmann]

Thanks Mark. Getting folk to move toward pressure is a big deal and is something I'm struggling to incorporate into my own skiing.

Mark do you have any ideas, progressions or drills that encourage moving toward pressure in steep (and icy) terrain for advanced skiers. Also, are you focusing on this concept in a particular part of the turn? Thanks.

 

[markojp]

Mark do you have any ideas, progressions or drills that encourage moving toward pressure in steep (and icy) terrain for advanced skiers. Also, are you focusing on this concept in a particular part of the turn? Thanks.

I coach it all the time. I'm in the process of making a short vid of a couple of things that really help folks feel this. Where in the turn? Initially at the bottom and into transition, then working up the arc.

 

[Tom Holtmann]

I coach it all the time. I'm in the process of making a short vid of a couple of things that really help folks feel this. Where in the turn? Initially at the bottom and into transition, then working up the arc.

Look forward to seeing the video.

 

[geepers]

yes, I do know this. I'm a bit perturbed that the assumption by some is that I don't.

Well, yes, of course I can assume you know that. Just thought that the statement that platform angle was the whole enchilada, the whole 9 yards, the big cheese, the one ring to rule them all.... was perhaps less than optimal.

Which, given your later posts on the assumption that fore/aft is dialled, seems not unreasonable. Certainly CSIA (now superseded) Tech Refs were hierarchical. And yet we kept looping back to #1 (balance) with just about every increment in competence and performance. I once failed the L3 Teaching exam by not looping back.

There is a tendency on this subforum for people to explain things as if others don't know it. I tend to get mad if someone explains stuff, supposedly to me directly, that they should realize I know. It happens more frequently than it should.

But sometimes they may be just explaining it to themselves, finding the right words, clarifying new or previously unfocused thoughts they are now having, while posting it, and it comes across as a patronizing response when it's not meant as such.

However it may be a bit Pollyanna to see it this way.

I'm very much the opposite. Quite happy to hear repeats of stuff I know (or perhaps should know). It's amazing how there's clarifications or missed nuances.

 

[geepers]

I'm in the process of making a short vid of a couple of things that really help folks feel this.

Fantastic!

 

[Jelder]

My Four Fundamentals:

1) Reach
2) Release
3) Roll
4) Retract

But what do I know?

 

[Noodler]

My Four Fundamentals:

1) Reach
2) Release
3) Roll
4) Retract

But what do I know?

You've piqued my curiosity. Tell us more...

 

[Jelder]

You've piqued my curiosity. Tell us more...

Totally home grown based on Big Picture Skiing, watching endless videos on YouTube, and trial and error:

1) Reach- Reaching to pole plant and getting a little more angulation
2) Release- Releasing my outside edge...this phase also includes falling sideways, i.e. toppling
3) Roll- Roll my edges over as I fall into the inside of the new turn
4) Retract- Retract my new inside knee for inclination and edge angle

 

[Noodler]

Totally home grown based on Big Picture Skiing, watching endless videos on YouTube, and trial and error:

1) Reach- Reaching to pole plant and getting a little more angulation
2) Release- Releasing my outside edge...this phase also includes falling sideways, i.e. toppling
3) Roll- Roll my edges over as I fall into the inside of the new turn
4) Retract- Retract my new inside knee for inclination and edge angle

I like it, but there's a challenge in that retraction and rolling can be seen as part of the release; release is not separate from those elements. So here's my take: Retract, Roll, Reach. Retract the old stance ski to release the pressure and transfer balance to the LTE of the inside ski. Roll the skis to their new edges via toppling and/or knee angulation. Reach for the inside of the turn via a proper mix of angulation and inclination (the mix depends on turn speed and forces).