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KingGrump

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GregK

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Hard to compete with the purchase of a new home but what if I told you that the longer 400 and 800 grit diamond stones I just purchased are double sided…….Haha

Picked up the smaller ones as they are perfect for travelling or in a ski jacket along with a ski brake tie down to secure the flat ski in my ski vises that don’t have a middle clamping vise.

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jmeb

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he longer 400 and 800 grit diamond stones I just purchased are double sided…….Haha

Picked up the smaller ones as they are perfect for travelling or in a ski jacket along with a ski brake tie
Upside is that you don't have to pay for those for the next 30 years.
 

Uncle-A

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Hard to compete with the purchase of a new home but what if I told you that the longer 400 and 800 grit diamond stones I just purchased are double sided…….Haha

Picked up the smaller ones as they are perfect for travelling or in a ski jacket along with a ski brake tie down to secure the flat ski in my ski vises that don’t have a middle clamping vise.

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I was wondering, is 400 a fine enough grit? When it comes to diamond stones, many seem to start talking about 800 as the starting point. The thread about knives and sharpening has a few posts on the dimond stones and I don’t think any are starting at 400, that being said skis and knives are quite different items.
 

GregK

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I was wondering, is 400 a fine enough grit? When it comes to diamond stones, many seem to start talking about 800 as the starting point. The thread about knives and sharpening has a few posts on the dimond stones and I don’t think any are starting at 400, that being said skis and knives are quite different items.
400 Fine enough to start the progression of diamond stones after using a fine/finishing file after coarser files before? Yes, but you’d still want to go to a finer stone to finish after the 400grit. I usually go up to at least 800grit for finishing.

I have 100 to 1500 grit diamonds and use the 400 and 800 the most. Will use a 1000 or 1500 occasionally now but they are very fine so usually more of a “race ski” type of extra step. The 800 to 1000grit step is much smaller than the difference between 200 to 400 step.

100 and 200 are pretty coarse so usually use those when I don’t have my fine file when travelling or to make quick work of rounding tips/tails above the widest taper points.
 

ski otter 2

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I was wondering, is 400 a fine enough grit? When it comes to diamond stones, many seem to start talking about 800 as the starting point. The thread about knives and sharpening has a few posts on the dimond stones and I don’t think any are starting at 400, that being said skis and knives are quite different items.
400 Fine enough to start the progression of diamond stones after using a fine/finishing file after coarser files before? Yes, but you’d still want to go to a finer stone to finish after the 400grit. I usually go up to at least 800grit for finishing.

I have 100 to 1500 grit diamonds and use the 400 and 800 the most. Will use a 1000 or 1500 occasionally now but they are very fine so usually more of a “race ski” type of extra step. The 800 to 1000grit step is much smaller than the difference between 200 to 400 step.

100 and 200 are pretty coarse so usually use those when I don’t have my fine file when travelling or to make quick work of rounding tips/tails above the widest taper points.
(With apologies, I ain't that great at it; I just have been at it off and on for some time, through racing also.)

To me, the reason there are such differences in where to start (anywhere from 100 to 800 and higher) is that one goal is to take off the minimal amount of edge (especially the base side) for minimizing need for base flattening grinds and ski wear: if a finer grit will do the trick to eliminate the level of edge damage/burr that is most common for your ski area, skiing, and particular damage, etc., then that's the one to use. So experiment to find what severity of burr or edge damage wants what, with grit fineness.

In addition to diamond stones, many use thin, fine stones of ceramic or actual Arkansas stone, at times. Many race shops have sold the thin ceramic stones, a white one (1200) and a brown one (600). I've found these take off less material than the comparable diamond version, and don't require water lubrication, the way the diamond stones do for longevity. Also, unlike the diamond stones, the ceramic ones don't wear out.

In particular, surprisingly, the 1200 white one works well as a starting stone for most routine burrs. (I think it has something to do with the difference between the materials, ceramic versus diamond grit.) This saves time, elbow grease, and most of all, metal base material (and metal edge material).

Last, there's a good reason that the diamond stones include that 1500. It's an answer to the question, "what is the least fine grit that will pretty much automatically guarantee no slight, intermittent hanging burr edge from using stones for tuning?" (That is, if the alternating stroke method is used, especially towards the end.)

Working by hand, as a near final step, I used to have to inspect by feel the edge for hanging burrs of whatever length, just to make sure none were there (after tuning by alternating edge side to base side single strokes, for the final, finer grit tune steps at least). Using the 1500 grit as a final step (seemingly too fine to make any difference for anyone but racers), I stopped having to check for an occasional bit of hanging burr edge here and there. It just stopped happening.
 
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cantunamunch

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In particular, surprisingly, the 1200 white one works well as a starting stone for most routine burrs. (I think it has something to do with the difference between the materials, ceramic versus diamond grit.) This saves time, elbow grease, and most of all, metal base material (and metal edge material).

Aluminum oxide grits get smaller and rounder as they grind. Diamond and carbide grits stay approximately the same size and stay sharp much much longer.

This is also a known thing in sandpaper world and rock polishing world.
 

GregK

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if a finer grid will do the trick to eliminate the level of edge damage/burr that is most common for your ski area, skiing, and particular damage, etc., then that's the one to use
THIS!!!
Like in car detailing when trying to remove scratches or swirls, you go with the least aggressive polish needed to remove the defect or else you have to go through more polishing stages to perfect it.

I use the higher grit stones by hand to remove any defects or burrs and only go coarser if the higher one is taking too long. I go over my edges daily and usually find a defect or two as I ski in the east and ski glades when possible. Then I’m using the 1500 or 1000 by hand to protect especially on the base bevel.
 

ski otter 2

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I wanted to keep it simple. :)

I'm guessing by aluminum oxide grits you are including ceramic and Arkansas stones?

Short answer:
It's known that ceramic stones can be "refreshed" if need be; most easily, in the ski world, by using a diamond stone across the surface for a stroke or two.

But a recreational skier doing his or her own tuning is not likely to need such a "refreshing."

Additional, longer answer:
(If you keep them lubed and honed, Arkansas stones don't really wear out either, for our ski purposes.
And they make those in different grits also.)


If I were higher volume tuning or race ski tuning for a team or teams, I'd have to do/learn more, especially with routines of sandpaper tuning; and with power tuning tools; but maybe I'd also have to slightly modify my approach with ceramic stones in hand tune situations, in the unlikely event I'd still be tuning: I might have to "refresh" them. :ogbiggrin:

Practically speaking, it's my experience that, de-burring skis (if needed) after every day out, that beyond cleaning the ceramic stones for metal and stray wax now and then, the ceramic stones keep working well, no noticeable drop off, for the limited uses intended - what a recreational or racing skier is likely to find useful for self, family and a few friends. (For example, the white 1200 ceramic I use now to start the de-burring process most days, for routine damage, is probably a dozen years old, no "refreshing" needed as yet. Just one or two cleanings a year with a citrus cleaner. )
I guess I accidentally break them or lose them or "loan" them out before they wear to the point of a "refreshing," for my uses.

Also, I have a similar white rod ceramic knife sharpener, and after lots of decades of use, it sharpens knives well still, no wear out for such limited use.
Aluminum oxide grits get smaller and rounder as they grind. Diamond and carbide grits stay approximately the same size and stay sharp much much longer.

This is also a known thing in sandpaper world and rock polishing world.
 
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cantunamunch

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I wanted to keep it simple. :)

I'm guessing by aluminum oxide grits you are including ceramic and Arkansas stones?

The grit in the ceramic stone is going to be either an aluminum oxide or a silicon carbide, depending on which cutting and polishing characteristics the mfg wanted to give it. Everything else (mostly other oxides) is structural support, provided according to cost and durability criteria.

AlOx - less aggressive cut, slight self-polishing. Carbide - consistently aggressive cut, usually matte finish unless grit is super fine.

Pretty simple, IMO. :)

 

ski otter 2

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The grit in the ceramic stone is going to be either an aluminum oxide or a silicon carbide, depending on which cutting and polishing characteristics the mfg wanted to give it. Everything else (mostly other oxides) is structural support, provided according to cost and durability criteria.

AlOx - less aggressive cut, slight self-polishing. Carbide - consistently aggressive cut, usually matte finish unless grit is super fine.

Pretty simple, IMO. :)
My post was specific to the use of diamond stones in two posts above.

What isn't always simple is the way these things you mention interact with the best strategies of ski tuning that have been learned and passed down from experience sharpening edges and tuning skis, mostly by race techs. There are surprising but important things to learn with this that are not possible to figure out from just the simplistic info you're mentioning. Practical ways to do things. Surprising ways also, that work and are "best practice." Thus, the 1500 diamond grit stone and the 1200 and 600 ceramics, white and brown, are not of obvious use to most, but were regularly stocked by race shops such as Artechski (now defunct) and other race shops, particularly for hand tuning - including by race techs.

The two posts on diamond stones use above could benefit from the info I posted, for some possibly. Since best uses of these three extra stones is/was an improvement, and seems unknown by many, I'm just trying to pass down the use of those things, in coordination with the other diamond stones. It's why those things were kept in stock, for race hand-tuning for years. That was pretty simple.
 
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cantunamunch

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Ok, you win.

I apologise for posting my simplistic info - which happens to explain why a $3 brown Olin stone or white ceramic stone from a $20 Burton/Red snowboard kit behaves differently, possibly better, than a diamond.
 

ski otter 2

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Gad, I think I've worn out two or three sets of the main diamond stones (in the standard form) in the time I've used just one set of the ceramics, which are still good to go. And I use the ceramics more.

Even though the diamond stones themselves are harder, on paper.
 

ski otter 2

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Ok, you win.

I apologise for posting my simplistic info - which happens to explain why a $3 brown Olin stone or white ceramic stone from a $20 Burton/Red snowboard kit behaves differently, possibly better, than a diamond.
I appreciate that suggested explanation! Shucks.

Your post is a relief; sorry, guess I was just not getting the implications of what you were posting. Not unusual. :)

It's a bit confusing to me that, say, the expensive Swix diamond stones (that get cheaply but well copied) behave the way they do - wear out so much more quickly, in practical rather than literal terms - than the ceramics or Arkansas, which are softer.

I'd guess, from your info, that the diamond stones depend on those sharp edges you mentioned more, while the ceramics may be just making their rounded shapes smaller, and more fine grit, less aggressive. Dunno.
Would that be accurate?

I sort of get why maybe the ceramics work more precisely, more minimally also, to minimize metal removal while deburring. And why they enable a more finesse or fine-tuned result on the finer grit stages of tuning in about the same amount of time - that the diamonds probably are really overkill towards the fine grit end of the process, in some ways.
 

cantunamunch

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It's a bit confusing to me that, say, the expensive Swix diamond stones (that get cheaply but well copied) behave the way they do - wear out so much more quickly, in practical rather than literal terms - than the ceramics or Arkansas, which are softer.

I'd guess, from your info, that the diamond stones depend on those sharp edges you mentioned more, while the ceramics may be just making their rounded shapes smaller, and more fine grit, less aggressive. Dunno.
Would that be accurate?

I sort of get why maybe the ceramics work more precisely, more minimally also, to minimize metal removal while deburring. And why they enable a more finesse or fine-tuned result on the finer grit stages of tuning in about the same amount of time - that the diamonds probably are really overkill towards the fine grit end of the process, in some ways.

My model agrees with everything you say here. Witness:

The saving grace of ceramic stones is both that they have cheap grit dispersed throughout the volume of the ceramic and that the grit is self-limiting in cutting power.

Whereas the diamonds are expensive grit in a superthin layer bonded to a single surface of the stone - and both loose diamonds and the steel filings themselves are hard enough to abrade the bonding material.
 

ski otter 2

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My model agrees with everything you say here. Witness:

The saving grace of ceramic stones is both that they have cheap grit dispersed throughout the volume of the ceramic and that the grit is self-limiting in cutting power.

Whereas the diamonds are expensive grit in a superthin layer bonded to a single surface of the stone - and both loose diamonds and the steel filings themselves are hard enough to abrade the bonding material.
Yes, I agree with you. And your extra detail of how the Diamond grit is bonded, in your last post, explains more of why.
Also why one must lube the diamond stone, to make it both more even in its work and longer lasting.

I've gotten so that I really trust the ceramics over the diamonds where they overlap. At less cost.
 
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jmeb

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NBD for effectively $0 out of pocket thanks to TABOR tax refunds and Denver-run e-bike incentives.

More fun than driving the Miata around town, that's for sure. Epic picnics, big grocery store runs, and hopefully one day a kiddo on the back.

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