The importance of the written and spoken word

[Tony S]

Proper grammar is really just style and it don't matter a bit so long as the words cannot be misunderstood.

Words can always be misunderstood if the writer's assumptions about the audience are wrong enough. You don't have to look further than @fatbob's comments about "quite" and "interesting" above. Cultural and educational factors come into play. Yadda, yadda.

Meaning comes not only from words, but from the construction of sentences and paragraphs. "Eats, shoots, and leaves," etc. So I disagree that grammar is "just" style. I'm perfectly prepared to stand up and say that certain sentences have bad grammar because I believe strongly in the value of a common framework for prose communication. Not sure I'd say the same for style.

Annnnnnnd, style carries meaning too.

in short, it's complicated, and wishful reductionism doesn't change that.

 

[Crank]

Words can always be misunderstood if the writer's assumptions about the audience are wrong enough. You don't have to look further than @fatbob's comments about "quite" and "interesting" above. Cultural and educational factors come into play. Yadda, yadda.

Meaning comes not only from words, but from the construction of sentences and paragraphs. "Eats, shoots, and leaves," etc. So I disagree that grammar is "just" style. I'm perfectly prepared to stand up and say that certain sentences have bad grammar because I believe strongly in the value of a common framework for prose communication. Not sure I'd say the same for style.

Annnnnnnd, style carries meaning too.

in short, it's complicated, and wishful reductionism doesn't change that.

Yes but... There are so many ways to say a thing. What I'm saying is that so long as your meaning cannot be misunderstood your are good. Screw the rules. Grammar can be fun to play with.Worked with a wise woman who's military father used to say : Don;t say it so it can be understood. Say it so it can't possibly be misunderstood. I use that word a lot - misunderstood.

I mentioned that I used to do a ton of copywriting. That included words for UK, France, Poland, Mexico. Spain, Brazil, 2 dialects of Chinese, etc... Total nightmare and you were somewhat at the mercy of the translation services. Our writing was mostly marketing so we were mindful of local colloquialisms in a lot of different places.

 

[cantunamunch]

Say it so it can't possibly be misunderstood. I use that word a lot - misunderstood.

I have a not-quite-double objection to this concept.

The first part of the objection is that any given reader, at any time, can actively choose to misunderstand and misinterpret. I am absolutely not willing to chase those rabbits down their self-selected holes.

The second part of the objection, and I'm not sure it's completely separate from the first, relates to style. My style of presentation is a choice that I am making, and I am absolutely not willing to give up my individuality to fit the biggest, most accessible rabbit hole of hypothetical reader acceptability.

 

[Crank]

I have a not-quite-double objection to this concept.

The first part of the objection is that any given reader, at any time, can actively choose to misunderstand and misinterpret. I am absolutely not willing to chase those rabbits down their self-selected holes.

The second part of the objection, and I'm not sure it's completely separate from the first, relates to style. My style of presentation is a choice that I am making, and I am absolutely not willing to give up my individuality to fit the biggest, most accessible rabbit hole of hypothetical reader acceptability.

I guess it depends on what your goal is.

 

[cantunamunch]

I guess it depends on what your goal is.

Certainly.

Fortunately I have only one or two writing channels where I am representing an entity other than myself, and those channels have such contrived linguistic structures that misunderstanding by lay people is a given.

And thus I cast off the blue school uniform and dark trousers of linguistic simplicity. I burn it in fire.


Oh, hey, look! They have musketeer outfits! In LATEX!

 

[Crank]

There you go! In Latex! Is that a sentence?

 

[cantunamunch]

Is that a sentence?

No, but school uniform is

 

[Tony S]

They have musketeer outfits! In LATEX!

There you go! In Latex! Is that a sentence?

Told you it was complicated.

I'm sure linguists have a term for this move.

You've got a colloquial / theatrical trick of speech that's breaking a rule for effect. Tuna is imitating that trick, for double effect. (It's double because we expect closer rule following on the page than in speech.) You do this in music all the time with syncopation, unexpected time changes, intentional temporary dissonances, etc.

 

[Crank]

Kind of what I'm trying to say regarding rules. Made to be broken and all.

 

[LiquidFeet]

....Meaning comes not only from words, but from the construction of sentences and paragraphs. "Eats, shoots, and leaves," etc. So I disagree that grammar is "just" style. I'm perfectly prepared to stand up and say that certain sentences have bad grammar because I believe strongly in the value of a common framework for prose communication. Not sure I'd say the same for style.

Annnnnnnd, style carries meaning too.....

King Lear. Act 3. Scene 1. Shakespeare translated into "simple" English.

What changed? Style, grammar, vocabulary, interpretive challenge, level of indirectness, rhythm, imagery, density, intent?

Is anything valuable lost in the translation?

 

[Slemers]

True.

This my usage of "Interesting" as well. Some people get the response and some don't

 

[Pat AKA mustski]

King Lear. Act 3. Scene 1. Shakespeare translated into "simple" English.

View attachment 172088

What changed? Style, grammar, vocabulary, interpretive challenge, level of indirectness, rhythm, imagery, density, intent?

Is anything valuable lost in the translation?

It's Act 3, scene 1 ... without context, it's meaningless regardless of the translation. As far as style goes ... King Lear is written mostly in verse (iambic pentameter), but the instances where Shakespeare chooses prose are indicative of the character's descent into madness. Simply changing the iambic pentameter to all prose completely changes the meaning of the entire play. The form of the writing - verse or prose- clues the observer into the character's state of mind.

So, in short, yes ... something very valuable is lost in the translation.






































Modern English Prologue
In the beautiful































































































Modern English Prologue


In the beautiful city of Verona, where our story takes place, two families, both well-known and well-respected, explode from a long-standing feud into new violence, and citizens stain their hands with the blood of their fellow citizens. Two unlucky children from these enemy families fall in love and commit suicide. Their unfortunate deaths end their parents’ fight. For the next two hours, we will watch the story of their ill-fated love and their parents’ anger which nothing but their children’s deaths could end. If you listen patiently to the action onstage, we will try to cover everything that we have missed in this prologue.

 

[James]

Those who choose to ignore their grammar mistakes are condemned to repeat them. Yo.

 

[Pat AKA mustski]

It's Act 3, scene 1 ... without context, it's meaningless regardless of the translation. As far as style goes ... King Lear is written mostly in verse (iambic pentameter), but the instances where Shakespeare chooses prose are indicative of the character's descent into madness. Simply changing the iambic pentameter to all prose completely changes the meaning of the entire play. The form of the writing - verse or prose- clues the observer into the character's state of mind.

So, in short, yes ... something very valuable is lost in the translation.






































Modern English Prologue
In the beautiful































































































Modern English Prologue


In the beautiful city of Verona, where our story takes place, two families, both well-known and well-respected, explode from a long-standing feud into new violence, and citizens stain their hands with the blood of their fellow citizens. Two unlucky children from these enemy families fall in love and commit suicide. Their unfortunate deaths end their parents’ fight. For the next two hours, we will watch the story of their ill-fated love and their parents’ anger which nothing but their children’s deaths could end. If you listen patiently to the action onstage, we will try to cover everything that we have missed in this prologue.

Sorry folks. I don’t know what happened. Half my post … didn’t post. It was supposed to include the original Shakespearean prologue from Romeo and Juliet in which the modernization of language did not affect the meaning. I have no idea what the glitch was.

 

[James]

. I have no idea what the glitch was.

The editor eats text all the time. Drives me nuts. Seems often with a return key hit or maybe the delete key. Even the space bar! Sometimes if you notice it before posting you can get it back with the counter clockwise arrow at top.

 

[scott43]

I like trying to explain English to my son... Danger..manger...ranger...hanger.... Bastard language..

 

[fatbob]

Sorry folks. I don’t know what happened. Half my post … didn’t post. It was supposed to include the original Shakespearean prologue from Romeo and Juliet in which the modernization of language did not affect the meaning. I have no idea what the glitch was.

When you post it in the modern though it emphasises that Shakespeare was the King of Spoilers - imagine today he'd be starting with a blurb saying Bruce is dead or Daenerys is a mad baddy.

Guess the prologue had a important role when the only performed drama was on stage. Couldn't do as much with directed editing and knowing cutaways.

 

[cantunamunch]

When you post it in the modern though it emphasises that Shakespeare was the King of Spoilers - imagine today he'd be starting with a blurb saying Bruce is dead or Daenerys is a mad baddy.

Guess the prologue had a important role when the only performed drama was on stage. Couldn't do as much with directed editing and knowing cutaways.

*shrug* it's a tragedy. The spoiler is in the title.

Blame the Greeks; if anyone is *not* here for hamartia, leave now.

 

[fatbob]

On the subject of Shakespeare I highly recommend the usually excellent Inside No 9's homage to iambic pentameter and farce : Zanzibar

 

[scott43]

Iambic pentameter...haven't hear THAT phrase in 45 years....