• For more information on how to avoid pop-up ads and still support SkiTalk click HERE.

silentslinky

In the parking lot (formerly "At the base lodge")
Skier
Joined
Jan 27, 2022
Posts
6
Location
Colorado
@LindseyB - question for you please. If I get this year's 168cm Laser AX, would I be able to put those new bindings you were discussing for 22/23 on them?

Edit... @Philpug too, as he's skied on them too
 
Last edited:

dovski

Waxing my skis and praying for snow
Skier
Joined
Jan 7, 2018
Posts
2,865
Location
Seattle
My experience differs on the M5. Boat load of fun off piste. Large sweet spot in the bumps and tree. Does take some skill though.



Like @Henry said, it's up to you. If it bites you, hit it with something until it stop biting you.
I keep mine sharpened tip to tail.
To be clear the original M5 was more of a frontside ski. I demoed it in Verbier and it was fine on the groomers and the steeps but they had so much snow that weekend it struggled on the off piste. I switched to the Candide 3.0 and it was an exponential improvement. So yes in the right conditions M5 could be a lot of fun but it just did not have the float or flexprofile for real off piste IMHO and it was not great in more then a few inches of POW. My point being is I have a great carving ski for the frontside and a variety of all mountain off piste skis that I enjoy much more than the M5. Perhaps I skied it in the wrong conditions, but the reality is I just prefer skiing my Stocklis and really enjoyed the Faction skis much more than the M5 :)
 

KingGrump

Most Interesting Man In The World
Team Gathermeister
SkiTalk Supporter
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
12,209
Location
NYC
To be clear the original M5 was more of a frontside ski. I demoed it in Verbier and it was fine on the groomers and the steeps but they had so much snow that weekend it struggled on the off piste. I switched to the Candide 3.0 and it was an exponential improvement. So yes in the right conditions M5 could be a lot of fun but it just did not have the float or flexprofile for real off piste IMHO and it was not great in more then a few inches of POW. My point being is I have a great carving ski for the frontside and a variety of all mountain off piste skis that I enjoy much more than the M5. Perhaps I skied it in the wrong conditions, but the reality is I just prefer skiing my Stöcklis and really enjoyed the Faction skis much more than the M5 :)

Skill set matters.
 

dovski

Waxing my skis and praying for snow
Skier
Joined
Jan 7, 2018
Posts
2,865
Location
Seattle
Skill set matters.
Skills do matter, but so do conditions and personal preference lol. Bottom line I skied the M5, just fine however I enjoyed skiing the CT3.0 way more. So when it comes to investing $$ in a ski, there are about a dozen skis I would chose over the M5, based on my experience with them. This has nothing to do with skill, but really comes down to personal preference. So for me, skiing an M5 off piste in a foot or two of POW in Verbier was like bringing a knife to a gun fight, you could do some damage but it was not ideal. Likewise on the groomed downhill run, the M5 was fine but there were so many skis that were better suited to that terrain .... I think you see where I am going, just because you can ski something in certain set of conditions does not mean you have too lol. The good news is that I think Volkl got the message as the new Mantra is waay better than the M5 IMHO ... but I am still going to ski my Stocklis, because while skills do matter, so do Stocklis lol
 

Tony Storaro

Glorified Tobogganer
Skier
SkiTalk Supporter
Joined
Mar 2, 2020
Posts
7,806
Location
Europe
Make sure that your skis are hand-tuned to fix the base bevels at the tips and tails (the upturn portions and especially the "transition zone" into the upturn). No factory machine does this correctly. Until your skis are hand-tuned using a base bevel guide there's no telling what you're dealing with, but it's usually a complete lack of proper base bevel angle in these critical regions. Once this is fixed, a sharp ski tip to tail should ski perfectly without being hooky/grabby.

Thanks man but I think I am done experimenting with this. I already have a pretty good idea and even marked points on my ski indicating how they should be tuned so that they ski the way I want them to.
No sharp tips and tails for yours trully.
 

TheArchitect

Working to improve all the time
Skier
SkiTalk Supporter
Joined
Dec 4, 2016
Posts
3,383
Location
Metrowest Boston
You know you're in the section of this forum dedicated to discussing the differences and comparisons of gear, pertaining to snow sports, right?

You know that the skill set of a skier has an impact on how a ski performs and is therefore a relevant part of the discussion when comparing gear, right? If I can't properly bend an FIS ski and call it bad does that make it true? It certainly makes it true for ME but not in general.
 

Seldomski

All words are made up
Skier
Joined
Sep 25, 2017
Posts
3,052
Location
'mericuh
Make sure that your skis are hand-tuned to fix the base bevels at the tips and tails (the upturn portions and especially the "transition zone" into the upturn). No factory machine does this correctly. Until your skis are hand-tuned using a base bevel guide there's no telling what you're dealing with, but it's usually a complete lack of proper base bevel angle in these critical regions. Once this is fixed, a sharp ski tip to tail should ski perfectly without being hooky/grabby.
Thanks for being specific.
 

Seldomski

All words are made up
Skier
Joined
Sep 25, 2017
Posts
3,052
Location
'mericuh
Make sure that your skis are hand-tuned to fix the base bevels at the tips and tails (the upturn portions and especially the "transition zone" into the upturn). No factory machine does this correctly. Until your skis are hand-tuned using a base bevel guide there's no telling what you're dealing with, but it's usually a complete lack of proper base bevel angle in these critical regions. Once this is fixed, a sharp ski tip to tail should ski perfectly without being hooky/grabby.
I have had one really bad tune when I asked for it to be sharpened tip to tail. The shop that did it had no local tech and actually did tunes weekly when the guy who could tune was in town.

I had the ski 'fixed' at a different shop and they were skiable again. I no longer asked for a tip to tail tune, I just said, 'tune my skis.' The next shop likely did some aggressive detuning.

I then had them tuned a couple years later with a 'hand tune' from Gorsuch in Beaver Creek. It was not cheap but, wow, what an improvement! They did a proper job as the ski had more bite on firm than ever before and WAS NOT hooky... not even a little bit. Honestly they were skiing better than the Laser AR I had just demoed. I preferred the properly tuned Kendo to the demo Laser AR.

I get what @Tony Storaro is talking about though -- if there is a shop that doesn't know how to tune it properly, a tip to tail tune can be awful to ski. Getting it done right, and the ski truly comes alive.
 

KingGrump

Most Interesting Man In The World
Team Gathermeister
SkiTalk Supporter
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
12,209
Location
NYC
Skills do matter, but so do conditions and personal preference lol. Bottom line I skied the M5, just fine however I enjoyed skiing the CT3.0 way more. So when it comes to investing $$ in a ski, there are about a dozen skis I would chose over the M5, based on my experience with them. This has nothing to do with skill, but really comes down to personal preference. So for me, skiing an M5 off piste in a foot or two of POW in Verbier was like bringing a knife to a gun fight, you could do some damage but it was not ideal. Likewise on the groomed downhill run, the M5 was fine but there were so many skis that were better suited to that terrain .... I think you see where I am going, just because you can ski something in certain set of conditions does not mean you have too lol. The good news is that I think Volkl got the message as the new Mantra is waay better than the M5 IMHO ... but I am still going to ski my Stöcklis, because while skills do matter, so do Stöcklis lol

You know you're in the section of this forum dedicated to discussing the differences and comparisons of gear, pertaining to snow sports, right?

@TheArchitect hit it right on the head with his quote below. For me the skier skill set makes for all the difference in the world when it comes to ski evaluation. Basically I have to know how a reviewer ski prior to accepting their review.
Do I want to read a review from an intermediate skier on a high performance ski. The answer is not only "No", but "Hell No." They have absolutely no clue what they are evaluating. Ski performance while straight lining from the back seat is not what I am interested in.
TBH, many on this forum, don't even know what they don't know when it comes to making turns. Skill set matter more than hardware. If you have any doubts, ask any of the attendee of the just finished Taos mini-gathering. Ask them whether their Stockli out skied the Volkl and Blossoms during the gathering. A ski will only take you so far. Usually that is nowher near far enough.
Yeah, we can throw some money at the shiny new hardware but that will not make you a better skier. No difference from the skiers in the lift line with their 130s on a hard pack day. They looked cool, but that is it.

TBH, many of the poster in this thread reminds me of this. Looking for the silver bullet.

You know that the skill set of a skier has an impact on how a ski performs and is therefore a relevant part of the discussion when comparing gear, right? If I can't properly bend an FIS ski and call it bad does that make it true? It certainly makes it true for ME but not in general.
 
Last edited:

Paul Lutes

Making fresh tracks
Skier
Joined
Jun 6, 2016
Posts
2,611
....

I get what @Tony Storaro is talking about though -- if there is a shop that doesn't know how to tune it properly, a tip to tail tune can be awful to ski. Getting it done right, and the ski truly comes alive.

In all fairness, I think the esteemed Mr. Storano is apposed to any tuning of tips and tails, at least when it comes to Stocklis. I, however, always tune my Stocklis Tip to Tail, and would not be tempted to change. Perhaps Tony needs a better tuner? Wait .... Tony hates all things SL, so it actually makes sense that he can't handle a complete tune.
 

LindseyB

Stöckli
Industry Insider
Manufacturer
Joined
Jan 14, 2019
Posts
402
Location
SLC
@LindseyB - question for you please. If I get this year's 168cm Laser AX, would I be able to put those new bindings you were discussing for 22/23 on them?

Edit... @Philpug too, as he's skied on them too
I don't see why not, just so long as you get them flat. Also, I wouldn't prioritize it.

I wouldn't say that there is a performance improvement over the Warden, but the new Strive is more user friendly in terms of screwdrivers and fitment. It doesn't mean much to someone that sets it and forgets it, but when you do ski demoes for a living, and adjustment time is cut in half, it's pretty important.
 

Tony Storaro

Glorified Tobogganer
Skier
SkiTalk Supporter
Joined
Mar 2, 2020
Posts
7,806
Location
Europe
In all fairness, I think the esteemed Mr. Storano is apposed to any tuning of tips and tails, at least when it comes to Stöcklis. I, however, always tune my Stöcklis Tip to Tail, and would not be tempted to change. Perhaps Tony needs a better tuner? Wait .... Tony hates all things SL, so it actually makes sense that he can't handle a complete tune.

Hate? Nah. Dislike.
I can handle a pair of SL ski no problems but do not love the experience. Or at least this was the case last season when my goal was to go mach schnell all the time. This season I am focusing on other things and perhaps it is time to give them a chance again.
What I do not like about SL ski is the constant attention needed, the turny-ness, the "I will kick your ass if you are not alert" attitude.
Very narrow margin of error.
Sometimes I want to just let my mind drift for a while and make long arcing turns without thinking too much. Forget about that you have ski on your feet and just glide. This is very difficult on SL ski.

And coming back to tuning-I know what works for me and I am reluctant to experiment more with the tune at this point just because I have way more important stuff to work on. Polishing that technique you know. Elevate the level of suckage.:ogbiggrin:
 
Last edited:

Tony Storaro

Glorified Tobogganer
Skier
SkiTalk Supporter
Joined
Mar 2, 2020
Posts
7,806
Location
Europe
@TheArchitect hit it right on the head with his quote below. For me the skier skill set makes for all the difference in the world when it comes to ski evaluation. Basically I have to know how a reviewer ski prior to accepting their review.
Do I want to read a review from an intermediate skier on a high performance ski. The answer is not only "No", but "Hell No." They have absolutely no clue what they are evaluating.

Yes. BUT this works both ways. I mean sometimes you come across reviews of racers and experts who label a particular ski "Super expert, racer, A+++ game needed" ski and if you listen to this you would never try this ski because no sane normal skier would label himself like this Well at least those who are honest with themselves wouldn't. But oftentimes you do try the ski and find something completely different.

Two examples-the WRTs and the VWerks. The WRTs were labeled as above in many many many reviews. So what do I do? I know how I ski. Many things could be said about yours truly, most of them negative, but that he is the bigger, more capable and faster brother of Marko Odermatt is not among them. Although that part of being FAR more handsome is true though. :ogbiggrin:
So what do I do?Not touch the damn things? Nah. I went against all the reviews, bought them and fell head over heels with these.
Are they easy? No. Are they friendly?No. But I love them more than any other ski.

Another example-the VWerks. I read many reviews about these-narrow sweet spot, good for long arcing turns only, expert skier ski yada yada yada...
I found them to be super easy to ski, turn on a dime, do whatever turn shape you want, very easy to bend etc. Excellent ski. And FAST!
Of course there is that part about the noise but I already bitched about it in another thread so won't repeat myself here.

So, I guess point is-take ALL reviews with a grain of salt, no matter who wrote them. Grain of salt. Preferably-YUGE one.


P.S. Absolutely spot on that "better" ski won't make you a better skier. You won't believe that but I have witnessed... as in it happened right in front of me, how a dude crashed his 458 Ferrari into a TRACTOR while idiotically exiting a slow turn. A f*ckin tractor! And he slammed the car right in the bucket.
We first made sure the dude was OK and then laughed and laughed and laughed. :roflmao:
 
Last edited:

dovski

Waxing my skis and praying for snow
Skier
Joined
Jan 7, 2018
Posts
2,865
Location
Seattle
@TheArchitect hit it right on the head with his quote below. For me the skier skill set makes for all the difference in the world when it comes to ski evaluation. Basically I have to know how a reviewer ski prior to accepting their review.
Do I want to read a review from an intermediate skier on a high performance ski. The answer is not only "No", but "Hell No." They have absolutely no clue what they are evaluating. Ski performance while straight lining from the back seat is not what I am interested in.
TBH, many on this forum, don't even know what they don't know when it comes to making turns. Skill set matter more than hardware. If you have any doubts, ask any of the attendee of the just finished Taos mini-gathering. Ask them whether their Stöckli out skied the Volkl and Blossoms during the gathering. A ski will only take you so far. Usually that is nowher near far enough.
Yeah, we can throw some money at the shiny new hardware but that will not make you a better skier. No difference from the skiers in the lift line with their 130s on a hard pack day. They looked cool, but that is it.

TBH, many of the poster in this thread reminds me of this. Looking for the silver bullet.
@KingGrump 100% agree with your POV on reviews and completely aligned with your perspective on to many folks looking for the silver bullet. I also agree that @TheArchitect hit it right on the head with his quote, but so did @Jeronimo. Bottom line is that we are a community of people who love to ski and discuss all things ski related. That means sharing personal opinions about our experiences skiing and trying different gear. This is not the same thing as a formal ski review. The beauty of this is we can have different opinions and preferences when it comes to skis and also agree to disagree. So it is a bit of a cop out to toss "skills matter" out when someone has a valid comparative opinion about two skis they skied side by side in the same conditions that differs from your opinion of that ski.

To be clear if you know what you are doing you can have fun skiing just about anything, but lets be honest some skis are more fun to ski than others especially in specific conditions, isn't that the reasons some of us own multiple pairs of skis ... or have you found a silver bullet one quiver ski in a magical version of the M5 :roflmao:
 

scb

Booting up
Skier
Joined
Feb 20, 2021
Posts
38
Location
NYC
So I was all set on getting a laser ar this season after demoing them last season. Idea was to get a new pair for east coast and use my older sr95 (13/14) for trips west. I don’t get out too much anymore, so the sr95 are still in good shape

Then I got caught up in the idea that I should get an augment ar88, which I probably would have done if I could find them in a 179. But that’s impossible. So now I’m back to thinking I should get the laser ar maybe in a 182.

But then part of me says I love the sr95 so much, maybe get a new sr95 and just use that? Or an augment 98? But too wide for east full time?

I’m horrible sometimes when I need to make a decision.
 

Noodler

Sir Turn-a-lot
Skier
Joined
Oct 4, 2017
Posts
6,314
Location
Denver, CO
So I was all set on getting a laser ar this season after demoing them last season. Idea was to get a new pair for east coast and use my older sr95 (13/14) for trips west. I don’t get out too much anymore, so the sr95 are still in good shape

Then I got caught up in the idea that I should get an augment ar88, which I probably would have done if I could find them in a 179. But that’s impossible. So now I’m back to thinking I should get the laser ar maybe in a 182.

But then part of me says I love the sr95 so much, maybe get a new sr95 and just use that? Or an augment 98? But too wide for east full time?

I’m horrible sometimes when I need to make a decision.

If you have any desire whatsoever to improve your skiing skills, then going with a 90s ski as your daily driver in the East would not be my advice. At least get down into the 80s for waist width. I live in CO and primarily use skis that are in the high 70s and low 80s. I don't need anything wider unless the conditions demand it (which isn't often).
 

anders_nor

Making fresh tracks
Skier
Joined
Jan 18, 2020
Posts
2,597
Location
on snow
there is a weight aspect here, an agressive tune becomes even more agressive with weight. and a ski aspect, for a superstiff FIS ski it works out, but heavy skier + not superstiff ski and full tune no detune I find I dont like that on alot of skis, talking 0.5/3 no detune.

now add snow aspect, hard to icy conditions? usually again great, but super packed powder with lots and lots of grip some of the softer turnier skies tends to wanna really dig in when your trying to chill and hit their shortest radius, now add my 242lbs + gear and I can bend skis, and they wanna go even shorter.

on a FIS SL this doesnt really happen the same way, its more in tune, with its tune, and of course way stiffer.

I will tend to agree that a person who skis aggressive tune, no detune all day and does it will is probably a better skier, but there are other factors at play here, especially for the style of skiiing you want to do. I find I like an 88 on a lot of skis better than 87, but some of course demand that 87.

For demoing skis or new skis in general tune plays such a massive role, but for me also snowconditions vs tune, good snow can mask a bad tune.


thats my preferences...

now to my gf, she wants 0.5 or 0.75 base on everything, and 87 degrees edge angle, NO detune, just remove burrs.
Mix in a new ski with a less than perfect base and its interesting on hard surfaces to say the least, but fairly quick do discover at least.
Her favorite daily is a stöckli fis sl 155... but does not like the 157 length skis.
 

Sponsor

Top