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The Scout Mindset

Erik Timmerman

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I saw this review today and felt that it is relevant to a lot of what happens in this forum.


A little excerpt because I know WSJ's paywall is pretty robust:

“We talk about our beliefs as if they’re military positions, or even fortresses, built to resist attack,” the author writes. This soldier mindset leads us to defend against people who might “ ‘poke holes in’ our logic,” “shoot down” our beliefs or confront us with a “ ‘knock-down’ argument,” all of which may leave our beliefs “undermined,” “weakened” or even “destroyed.” Soldiers thus become “entrenched” in their beliefs, resisting “surrender” to an opposing position.

Later -

Scouts, Ms. Galef explains, “revise their opinions incrementally over time, which makes it easier to be open to evidence against their beliefs.” They also “view errors as opportunities to hone their skill at getting things right, which makes the experience of realizing ‘I was wrong’ feel valuable, rather than just painful.” In fact, the author suggests, we should drop the whole “wrong” confession and instead describe the process as “updating”—a reference to Bayesian reasoning, in which we revise our estimations of the probability of something’s being true after gaining new information about it. “An update is routine. Low-key. It’s the opposite of an overwrought confession of sin,” Ms. Galef continues. “An update makes something better or more current without implying that its previous form was a failure.”
 

jack97

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Galef talked about the Scout Mindset years ago. She went into hibernation recently but has come out with more on this topic. And yes, there are something to be said abut how it relates here and other places.

 

fatbob

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Interesting - not watched the clip but does she have anything to say about concepts about "right" and "wrong"/ positive and negative?

I can see how a belief that a particular action is "right" is critical in the military - you don't want combatants second guessing mid-mission, but in the real world there is scope for much more in shades of grey. Thus beliefs don't need to be absolute more probabilistic.

Not sure how it relates to ski instruction although I can see the more articles of faith a particular system has the less scope it has for scout like adaption (we are talking the military type not the type with woggles right?)

There's also a tie into ideas around (un)conscious competence etc. The more you know, the less certain you become that you know everything or that nothing can come along that will disrupt what you know.
 
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François Pugh

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Of course it's easier to change someone's view with gradual "updates" than simply telling them they're wrong. And any good scientist continually examines new evidence, puts forth new hypotheses and adapts the theory to fit all the data, including the new data, not the other way round.

On the other hand, when you're right, you're right. The key is to examine the new evidence thoroughly with an open mind.
 

Tony S

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Just watched. Good stuff. Thanks Erik.
 

cantunamunch

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She misses - or intentionally dodges - the issue of finding individual purpose through belief.

There is no set purpose without belief - and without set purpose, what is free will?

Indolence, randomness and cheap self-satisfaction is what.
 

Steve

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I saw this review today and felt that it is relevant to a lot of what happens in this forum.


A little excerpt because I know WSJ's paywall is pretty robust:

“We talk about our beliefs as if they’re military positions, or even fortresses, built to resist attack,” the author writes. This soldier mindset leads us to defend against people who might “ ‘poke holes in’ our logic,” “shoot down” our beliefs or confront us with a “ ‘knock-down’ argument,” all of which may leave our beliefs “undermined,” “weakened” or even “destroyed.” Soldiers thus become “entrenched” in their beliefs, resisting “surrender” to an opposing position.

Later -

Scouts, Ms. Galef explains, “revise their opinions incrementally over time, which makes it easier to be open to evidence against their beliefs.” They also “view errors as opportunities to hone their skill at getting things right, which makes the experience of realizing ‘I was wrong’ feel valuable, rather than just painful.” In fact, the author suggests, we should drop the whole “wrong” confession and instead describe the process as “updating”—a reference to Bayesian reasoning, in which we revise our estimations of the probability of something’s being true after gaining new information about it. “An update is routine. Low-key. It’s the opposite of an overwrought confession of sin,” Ms. Galef continues. “An update makes something better or more current without implying that its previous form was a failure.”
Galef talked about the Scout Mindset years ago. She went into hibernation recently but has come out with more on this topic. And yes, there are something to be said abut how it relates here and other places.


This is great, thank you Erik for bringing it up and Jack for the Ted link.

Erik one of the reasons I've always liked and respected you so much is because you clearly have a Scout Mindset. Possibly simply put as "open minded."

Changing one's mind is not "flip-flopping" it's reacting to new information that one absorbs.
 

cantunamunch

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Erik one of the reasons I've always liked and respected you so much is because you clearly have a Scout Mindset. Possibly simply put as "open minded."

Changing one's mind is not "flip-flopping" it's reacting to new information that one absorbs.

You (pretty much anyone in this thread, really) should read Philip E. Tetlock on Super Forecasting. Evolution of thinking to fit new information as well as evaluation of current information is his primary topic. Every one of the WSJ talking points is reflected in Tetlock's commandments for aspiring superforecasters.

AMAZON LINK

The critical difference between Galef and Tetlock is that Galef presents no notion of scale and triage. Tetlock insists that you apply his method to limited-time, limited-scope problems with (an eventual) definite answer.

Galef does not make any such limits. And, if we insist that all belief is changeable, we get bogged down in problems of scale, just like the "Everything is truly worthless because worth is just a changeable belief" paradox I showed above.

Put another way, the only way Scout Mindset can exist and function is if it cohabitates with Warrior Mindset.
 
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Steve

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One of my "spiritual advisors" when I was in my 20's told me of a meditation he used when he wanted to change one of his beliefs.

He visualized walking down multiple flights of stairs, down corridors, to a vault deep in his mind. He'd open the vault and in it there would be a large book. The book of his beliefs. He would imagine opening it to a page, finding the belief he wanted to change and crossing out or erasing (I can't recall exactly what he did) the words, and writing in the new belief he wanted to absorb. He'd then close the book, walk out, close the door, etc.

When my first wife left me, I did this. I again can't recall what the belief was, something about how I felt about her, which included anger of course.

As you said @cantunamunch "beliefs" are another thing entirely from things that we think we "know" and the latter comes through the filter of the former.
 
Thread Starter
TS
Erik Timmerman

Erik Timmerman

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This is great, thank you Erik for bringing it up and Jack for the Ted link.

Erik one of the reasons I've always liked and respected you so much is because you clearly have a Scout Mindset. Possibly simply put as "open minded."

Changing one's mind is not "flip-flopping" it's reacting to new information that one absorbs.

Thanks Steve, that's probably why I found the article interesting. I'm looking forward to watching that video.
 

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