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MattFromCanada

Professional Something-or-another
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Nov 12, 2015
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Hi everyone, this is my first or second post here on Pugski, now that I've finally finished the period of mourning over epicski. I'm an instructor based at Grouse Mountain, in Vancouver, Canada, formerly at Whistler-Blackcomb. Anyways...



When I was training for my level 3 exam, I noticed there were three distinct demographics:

First you had gap year kids on two year visas, attempting to get their 3 for bragging rights, before they went back home to “real” jobs, back to school, or simply before their visas ended and they faced deportation.

Next semi-retired weekend warriors doing it just for the fun and experience.

Finally, you had a small but determined group of professional instructors who lived the lifestyle, often jumping from continent to continent with the seasons, who either came from money, or had managed to marry a local and didn’t have to worry about being stuffed into a van by federal immigration agents.


The “professionals” notwithstanding, the ones most likely to pass were the gap year kids who were both young enough, to be physically capable of the skiing techniques demanded without being bogged down by years of injury and hard skiing, but also inexperienced enough as to be just impressionable enough that they were able to adapt to whatever teaching techniques were accepted of them.


The weekend warriors had a harder time, for a variety of reasons, be it real jobs, other commitments which precluded training, old injuries making it impossible to turn left properly, (in one case, I knew a fellow who would make wonderful right turns, but was unable to made left turns properly because he only had one leg, and his prosthetic on his right leg didn’t do him any favours) or simply because of their years of experience. Some of the people in this category had been working as instructors in one form or another for longer than some of the kids on the exams had been alive. Of course, this meant that they had to suppress years of habit and experience in the name of whatever is currently prescribed as “correct” by the CSIA. (I’m not sure if the PSIA is the same way, but the CSIA has been changing the methodology and some of the “proper” terminology every few years)


The problem is, that many newly minted level 3s pass, then their visas expire and they exit the industry. Very few make the jump to being a professional lifer. There are a few locals, but for the most part, locals get tired of the lifestyle and the low pay and end up going into real jobs. I know someone who took up bartending because it paid twice what a L3 got paid at Whistler. The result is that the Level 3s (and 4s for those of us in Canada) tend to be largely older, and ones who were certified a long time ago, then went on to real jobs and do this as a weekend warrior. Younger upper-cert instructors are less prevalent.


Anyways, I’m curious for all the other instructors here on this forum, do you find that the demographics of higher-cert instructors skews towards the older end of the spectrum? In your mind, do you think this is a positive or negative thing?
 

karlo

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I just got my Level 1, but I will comment as a consumer of instruction services. Once a year, I do one day with an instructor Level 3 or, on occasion an Examiner, to shake the dust off and to develop a plan on what to work on through the season. And, I will engage instructors, ones that can go anywhere, to act as my guide for me and the kids when at unfamiliar resorts. I have only had good experiences with Level 3 instructors, regardless of age.

I think you may be talking about an instructor's skiing skills. I find that, having a good instructor, I don't need someone that skis like me. The ability to observe and coach and instruct is different from one's skiing abilities.

I want to add, I often post too quickly, not thinking things through. But your post gave me pause and I, at first, wasn't going to reply at all, because, even now, I do not fully understand what you are asking and why. But, after a couple days, I'm making a stab. If I haven't addressed your question, so sorry.
 
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Jilly

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Belleville, Ontario,/ Mont Tremblant, Quebec
@MattFromCanada try going to a CSIA Convention. All old folks! But then again, we're the ones that can afford to go. Time and money.

I have to agree with you. Some is exactly as you're saying. I can think of 3 L3's that I know that are no longer teaching period. One has moved to Cali and really into biking. One has a major injury (MtnXTC for any Diva's) and one is burnt out. All female too. (@Philpug - Meaghan had her 3 when she was at WB years ago)

Currently I know of 1 under 30 vying for his L3 and 2 under 40 for L4.

I've kind of given up the dream of a 3. I don't have the time to teach even part time with my business. But I'm keeping up to date in case I change my mind. I'm going to do the Ladies Edge Camp again this year.
 

stuckinphilly

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I was doing my best to live the Lifestyle. I got my PSIA L3 and jumped around continents doing my best to make it work. I wanted to see if I could make a career out of it. I worked my butt off and sold private lessons as much as possible, which turned out to be quite a lot. In the end, though, I could never quite make ends meet. I looked around the locker room too many times and saw the guy who had been doing it forever but had no retirement, no benefits and had maxed out the pay scale. I didn't want to be there.

The final straw for me was getting passed up for assigned private lessons because "I was too expensive", despite having one of the highest return rates in my school. I'd love to still be living the dream, but the Industry needs to step up and take care of it's talent. Otherwise, the brain drain will continue.

Anyway, that's my story.
 

Philpug

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I was doing my best to live the Lifestyle. I got my PSIA L3 and jumped around continents doing my best to make it work. I wanted to see if I could make a career out of it. I worked my butt off and sold private lessons as much as possible, which turned out to be quite a lot. In the end, though, I could never quite make ends meet. I looked around the locker room too many times and saw the guy who had been doing it forever but had no retirement, no benefits and had maxed out the pay scale. I didn't want to be there.

The final straw for me was getting passed up for assigned private lessons because "I was too expensive", despite having one of the highest return rates in my school. I'd love to still be living the dream, but the Industry needs to step up and take care of it's talent. Otherwise, the brain drain will continue.

Anyway, that's my story.

Not just your story, the story of many. This is an industry that treats the "talent" as liabilities and not assets. Yes, there are some exceptions but I am talking as a whole.
 

Nancy Hummel

Ski more, talk less.
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PSIA has made it very expensive and time consuming for L3 certification. A host of required clinics, passing children specialist 2 (3 day exam) etc.

I did Level 2 because I wanted to be a better skier and be eligible to teach higher level lessons but I will not recoup the costs of doing it. I chose to do it and am fine with my choice but there are some financial barriers for people without other imcome.
 

fatbob

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Anyways, I’m curious for all the other instructors here on this forum, do you find that the demographics of higher-cert instructors skews towards the older end of the spectrum? In your mind, do you think this is a positive or negative thing?

Not an instructor so may not be qualified to answer but I think yes. N American ski industry is heavily skewed with young rookies and sophomores and lots of the hobby. older retired types. Europe where in some countries you can make a respectable career out of it seems to be different with far more 30/40 somethings. However the price of admission for that is a stringent Eurotest GS test that realistically no Over 40 without a fairly intense race background is going to pass so the weekend warriors or hobbyists don't really get the shot or opportunity to convert as a second career.

I definitely think there is a upside and downside to older instructors. On the negative we all get a bit more set in our ways and reactionary with age so keeping up with latest equipment and the art of the possible seems harder. On the other hand more experience, greater relatability to the average pupil than a young hotshot and more sympathy with the accumulation of age and injury impacts on what students can realistically achieve.

Personally I'd run a mile from anyone giving off a "young punks and their rocker'd skis don't know how to ski" vibe but be drawn to someone who could lay it down hard in a modern looking style
 

jimtransition

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Nov 15, 2016
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Niseko/Queenstown
As Fatbob said, the demographics of ski schools depend heavily on where you are talking about. For example instructors in Niseko are probably 75% under 30 year olds (mainly due to visa requirements). In the US very few resorts pay enough to make instructing a viable career option so naturally people tend to either drift to where they can make money skiing or go do something else.

It's sad hearing that people think PSIA exams are expensive, because getting a full cert in the US is cheaper and easier than almost anywhere else, it only feels expensive because there isn't any financial reward for it. I do know a fair amount of young (under 35) fullcerts in the US, most of them work in Aspen.
 

at_nyc

Getting off the lift
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Mar 8, 2016
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646
The "cert problem" is more a reflection of the sad state in ski instruction.

I know some mountains reimburse the exam fee for instructors who continue to teach. So paying for the cert exam isn't the real issue. Not being able to make ends meet as an instructor is the problem.
 

john petersen

working through minutia to find the big picture!
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Times are a changin'.......well, have already changed. one of my good ski buddies is 90 this year and talks about the hey day as a ski instructor when they were all from Austria, or France, or Switzerland....and the days when ski schools were just popping up and were run by legends...even in their own time..... WWII veterans were just opening ski areas and had invented snow making and lifts and groomers....it was new and exciting. and finally, most anyone with some means could go skiing......

but then, things changed, I guess...

today its pretty expensive for most folks to go skiing and take lessons and rent equipment and stay somewhere...the need for full time instructors is less in some areas....

To consider level 3 PSIA cert is more a personal choice than a career move.....unless you are planning on furthering your career as a coach, PSIA member/trainer, ect...

Ski schools are run and owned by most mountains here in the east, anyway, and have become part of the woven fabric. Sure, some folks get excited about taking season long lessons or signing up for specialty programs, but most folks come to snowsports schools for their kids and to take the occasional refresher.

I love being and instructor and am considering the next level of certification, but it is for personal reasons.....

I am past 30, but younger than 60.....(vague, aint it?) and most of my compatriots are generally in the same age range. New instructors in my area are in their 20s and 30s and even 40s....and only a small percentage of them are in it full time...and those that are do not consider it a year round commitment, though some work at the mountain full time and year round.

there seems to be a need for one to be self sufficient financially, intelligent and athletically stout to get yourself past level 2 PSIA....or, very very driven and determined.
(not sure where I fit in there, but I working my way up to determined......) ;)

JP
 

BS Slarver

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@MattFromCanada - great thread, @stuckinphilly, welcome and equally nice first post.

My .02. Mrs C and I taught full time for longer than I care to admit. We actually met teaching skiing in our mid twenties and both of us achieved our level lll and kept them for over 20 years
Over the years of teaching and coming up through the ranks from line instructors / race crew to running ski schools I can honestly say I made the most money and skied the most as a non certified to mid level instructor and had the most fun as well.

My take on PSIA and the ski industry is much like most of the opinions above especially stuck in phillys and is mostly east coast based. I think the retention level for all certification levels is lower in the east - I could be wrong.
Additionally, the average paying east coast skier, I believe skis between 4 and 7 days a year so how much of that is going to include a lesson and does the student come back again and if so how often ?

The cost of certification is high, yes, absolutely ! The cost of maintaining that certification is just as high if you figure now your traveling to an event, taking time off ( from teaching or your regular job ) and don't forget to add in the event fee.
My biggest complaint with ANY event I've ever been to and believe me I've been to more events than most is that there is WAY TO MUCH STANDING AROUND ON THE SIDE OF THE HILL TALKING !!!
The sport is skiing, its sliding down the hill making turns. The lodge, the lifts, loading and unloading is the place for chatting. Sure there needs to be discussion but it's not why head outdoors, it's not primarily why we ski !
Sometimes that standing and talking is taken back home and used on students. The instructors I have had who are training for upper level certification feel the need to spew their new found knowledge on their students, mostly unneeded and sometimes unwanted. The student also wants to be outdoors, sliding and moving and perhaps this leads to the lack of upper level lessons the instructors want and need ?
Bottom line is there is little to no money teaching skiing in the east. I think a lot of people do it to avoid paying for their skiing along with their families passes and their equipment via pro form.
 

Tricia

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We hear this from instructor friends on a regular basis.
Me: Oh I thought you were L3
Instructor friend: No, I can't afford it, and even if I could, I wouldn't be able to get the $$ back out of it from lessons. As it is, I'm getting premium private lessons because there are only a couple L3's in the ski school.
 

4ster

Just because you can doesn’t mean you should!
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Can anyone break down the cost of PSIA EXAM/ Assessment?
 

L&AirC

PSIA Instructor and USSA Coach
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If a mountain didn't have any L3s, it would still make money off all the beginners by using uncertified instructors that are barely making minimum wage. L3s are great for training not just the customers but the staff as well. Most mountains want them, but they won't break stride if they don't have any and the majority of the skiing public probably wouldn't notice.

I do think however that if a mountain paid instructors fairly (i.e. why is wiping down tables in the café a bigger pay check for the same hours at the mountain?), there would be more instructors going for higher certs.

Most folks do it now for personal satisfaction. Like studying in the martial arts to get a more senior belt. I consider getting my certs a personal preference and being a coach a hobby that gets me gas and lunch money.

Good thing I love doing it and have another job that affords me the opportunity to be a coach.

Ken
 

L&AirC

PSIA Instructor and USSA Coach
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Can anyone break down the cost of PSIA EXAM/ Assessment?

There are a lot of variables in this. Lodging, travel, how many swings at the bat it takes you, etc. I chased L2 for three seasons. Between hotels, training, prerequisites (also required travel and lodging), it can get quite expensive. I stopped counting when I hit $2K and that was in the second season. By then it had become more of a challenge than a desire. I would have to coach for at least two or three seasons without any expenses just to break even. It doesn't have to be that expensive but it was for me.
 

Monique

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If a mountain didn't have any L3s, it would still make money off all the beginners by using uncertified instructors that are barely making minimum wage.

This. More experienced instructors with higher certs would, I assume, be better for turning visitors into life long skiers (citation needed) - but you can get away with much cheaper employees by having newbie instructors teach beginners.
 

markojp

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Can anyone break down the cost of PSIA EXAM/ Assessment?

I can't recall exactly... in the PNW, it's a two day Sat/Sun exam + and optional Fri cruise around/orientation. ($235 260??). I also did a 'checkpoint' session a month before ($80?). It was held close enough to make it day tripping, but probably used a couple tanks of gas, bought a little food, and 2-3 beers on Sunday. Currently, our hill will reimburse the cost of the exam if you hire on the following season.

Maintaining cerification... PSIA membership. I go to most of the TD clinics (has to be approved by the SSD). They meet once a month Oct-April including a couple of divisional 2 and 3 day events and runs $260. These were great fun! I'm fortunate that the area also covered this cost. One could do a credit or two at a cost of roughly $85 to maintain certification as well. Honestly, the more you get into it, the more you get out of it all. I had a blast with PSIA last year even if work took some unexpected turns... not all unpleasant, but just different than anticipated. This season will be teaching/coaching, training, and probably 1 or 2 days of hill supervisor duty.
FWIW, our area wage is considerably more for each level of certification. Base for L3 full time is $30 per hour. Additional 'specialist' certs, experience, etc... gets you some bumps upward from there. Haven't had any issue with being 'too expensive'.
 
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4ster

Just because you can doesn’t mean you should!
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I can't recall exactly... in the PNW, it's a two day Sat/Sun exam + and optional Fri cruise around/orientation. ($235?). I also did a 'checkpoint' session a month before ($80?). It was held close enough to make it day tripping, but probably used a couple tanks of gas, bought a little food, and 2-3 beers on Sunday. Currently, our hill will reimburse the cost of the exam if you hire on the following season.

Maintaining cerification... PSIA membership. I go to most of the TD clinics (has to be approved by the SSD). They meet once a month Oct-April including a couple of divisional 2 and 3 day events and runs $260. These were great fun! I'm fortunate that the area also covered this cost. One could do a credit or two at a cost of roughly $85 to maintain certification as well. Honestly, the more you get into it, the more you get out of it all. I had a blast with PSIA last year even if work took some unexpected turns... not all unpleasant, but just different than anticipated. This season will be teaching/coaching, training, and probably 1 or 2 days of hill supervisor duty.
FWIW, our area wage is considerably more for each level of certification. Base for L3 full time is $30 per hour. Additional 'specialist' certs, experience, etc... gets you some bumps upward from there.

& I'm thinking no more than $1K including membership dues but no beers. Intermountain's site says $360 for 3 day exam. I would think a full-time LIII private instructor is gonna recoup that during a busy week. Either way that's a lot less than it is in most other countries or if you compare to other vocations i.e. PGA teaching cert. etc.
 

Tricia

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LIII private instructor is gonna recoup that during a busy week.
The argument that I've heard - (not from personal experienced)
There are so few going for L3 in recent years, that L2 instructors are getting many of the lessons that would normally be given to L3's.
And some of the resort politics get in the way of setting up an L3 lesson, passing it on to an L2 so that they don't have to pay the higher rate to the instructor. "I'm sorry that instructor isn't available but we have this person who is really good, too"

Not all resorts do this but its a common story I hear. That isn't a PSIA issue, that's a resort issue.
 

4ster

Just because you can doesn’t mean you should!
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I don't think the issue is so much the cost of becoming certified as it is the lack of motivation provided by most (not all) ski area management.

I don't think LIII is designed for part time or short term instructors. It is difficult because it is designed for full time professionals & along with study, training & clinics it requires concentrated practical experience.
 
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