The upper-cert "gap"

[Nancy Hummel]

I don't know that PSIA charges or expects too much for certifications, rather it is SAM not making the pursuit of certifications economically justifiable? Sooner or later SAM will come to realize, if you don't water the grass it will die.

The prereqs have to be done as PSIA clinics despite the availability of examiners at many ski area. PSIA could help the process by allowing ski schools to offer the same clinics in house at no charge to participants. Ski school could pay the clinician and everyone benefits.

 

[HDSkiing]

I work full time as an Instructor, teaching somewhere around 80 plus days a year and while I get paid ok, I could never live off of it, let alone support a family. I guess I’m one of the “second career people,” but the fact of the matter is without the first career there would have been no second skiing one, I’d still be grinding the hours away in a office somewhere.

It seems that today either you are a college kid or like in my case have amassed enough financial security to do a job that for most won’t pay the bills year round. How then does this industry cultivate the career pro skiers that become the leaders, top clinicians etc? It seems the routes to those careers are more challenging what they may have been in the past and my hats off to anyone that can do it.

It’s nice to do what you love, but I have seen a number of Instructors stress over their hours, which can’t be good for them or their students. I fully support the PSIA and what they do for the industry, between pro deals, tax deductions and other discounts the membership pays for itself, so no issue there and there is no doubt on the contributions they make to keeping a professional standard.

The question is, how much do the ski areas care?

In house training either due to necessity or out of an abundance of talent can fill the gaps. I know of a long time Instructor with a bit of a famous skiing pedigree that has never been certified who is the guy you send out when the rare level 9 skier wants a coaching session. And he’s not alone, while most Instructors have at least some level of certification in some discipline few have any desire to move above that, not because they cannot or because it’s too costly but because they will find work and have a repeat clientele without it, there is often no incentive other than a personal one (and a token pay raise).

While it’s true that I don’t instruct for the money, I also don’t do it solely for the love of teaching/sharing either. For any Instructor to excel you have to be a little greedy in terms of what you want out of it. I used to think, no way would I want to spend my days skiing below, or way below my level until I did it and found that revisiting and practicing those fundamentals made me a better skier, even after four decades of experience including competitive skiing in my youth, so yes I admit it, I do it for me, but if in the process I introduce someone to the sport or help someone achieve a breakthrough I feel good (again about me). Plus there is something that is just good for the soul being on the mountain that has a value not measured in money. You have to like people and enjoy being around them, being judgemental about their turns but never about them (a bigger challenge than is often realized).

I do believe that the PSIA will need to adapt over time to be more success oriented without lowering standards, Which is a whole other discussion.

 

[Monique]

How then does this industry cultivate the career pro skiers that become the leaders, top clinicians etc? It seems the routes to those careers are more challenging what they may have been in the past and my hats off to anyone that can do it.

I wonder this, too. Especially in combo with the thread on epic about how difficult it is to get a level 3 cert past a certain age.

 

[Nobody]

Although not directly involved in the L3 cert process and beyond that, I can relate to it because, living in europe, I am doing something similar.
1) I am past my prime times, started at 51 with U1 (Slovenian L1) and am
2) now (at 55) stuck on a plateau trying to obtain the U3 (Slovenian L3) full certification.
Age and muscle memory acquisition (for new movements) time are not two things that go well together (plus not beign a GS racer).
Unfortunately, until I will pass U3, chances for me to work (even part time) as a ski instructor are slim, very slim, or un-economical.
Hence the possibility to recover the investments sustained (in money...time spent away from my family will never be recovered) are nil...
I've a mighty good time, improved my skiing technique tenfold, both on and off piste (and knowledgeof the mountains), met great people, exposed myself to a different culture (albeit near, being still european), visited new mountains (from Austria to Slovena, and even in Italy), but all this cannot be enough, so
I am now at a crossorad, do I stop here and let go, try to find a (very unlikely) way to (legally) work even if "only" a U2, or stubbornly continue...taking more r€$ourc€$ away from my family, with no guarantees of success?

 

[Mike King]

Although not directly involved in the L3 cert process and beyond that, I can relate to it because, living in europe, I am doing something similar.
1) I am past my prime times, started at 51 with U1 (Slovenian L1) and am
2) now (at 55) stuck on a plateau trying to obtain the U3 (Slovenian L3) full certification.
Age and muscle memory acquisition (for new movements) time are not two things that go well together (plus not beign a GS racer).
Unfortunately, until I will pass U3, chances for me to work (even part time) as a ski instructor are slim, very slim, or un-economical.
Hence the possibility to recover the investments sustained (in money...time spent away from my family will never be recovered) are nil...
I've a mighty good time, improved my skiing technique tenfold, both on and off piste (and knowledgeof the mountains), met great people, exposed myself to a different culture (albeit near, being still european), visited new mountains (from Austria to Slovena, and even in Italy), but all this cannot be enough, so
I am now at a crossorad, do I stop here and let go, try to find a (very unlikely) way to (legally) work even if "only" a U2, or stubbornly continue...taking more r€$ourc€$ away from my family, with no guarantees of success?

Good questions! I started my journey at 56, getting my L1 in December and starting to teach in the Spring. I was able to teach because I started at Breckenridge, where my hourly wage $9/hour (more or less the same wage that my mentor started at in 1981) was attractive to my employer. I also had the advantage of having taken many many lessons myself, including a fair number of private lessons with national demo team members. I passed my L2 the following year. As my coach was a supervisor in Aspen, he was able to offer me (very) part time employment at Snowmass, and I went all-in.

Now I'm working on my L3. Fortunately, we do not have the Eurotest to obtain a L3, otherwise I doubt it would ever be achievable for me. I've had the objective of skiing at the L3 standard since I started this journey. The more my skiing has improved, the further away from the L3 standard I've realized I am. And for me it has never been about pay, or priority in teaching -- it always has been about achieving a goal that is objectively measured.

So, at my advancing age (I turn 63 this weekend), I've been considering whether to accept defeat or to continue trying to achieve the standard. My groomer skiing is close to the mark, but it has required years of effort to remake my skiing to be more efficient and I've purposefully minimized terrain skiing to avoid feeding default movement patterns. Whether I now can achieve the level of athleticism necessary to pass the L3 standard in terrain is a question I have.

There's no way that I will recoup the investment I've made to remake my skiing. In fact, I invest my ski teaching income in purchasing private coaching. It's not an economic decision for me -- it is about achieving a goal.

After being injured with a season ending training accident last year, I thought about declaring defeat. This season, I feel my skiing is reaching a level where it may be possible for me to achieve my objective, perhaps next season. So, I'm feeling more optimistic about my prospects and currently plan to take the exam next season.

Mike

 

[bud heishman]

Unfortunately, in this Country, it has become less and less feasible to make a decent living teaching skiing, with few exceptions. The wage gap between what the resorts charge for lessons and the percentage paid to instructors keep growing larger. At most feeder ski areas you will find retired seniors teaching as a hobbie or very young adults, who for whatever reason have chosen to live in poverty or still living with parents to be able to teach. The truth is SAM doesn't value their teaching staffs and just want to suck as much revenue out of that department for investors as possible. To hell with the quality of lessons, which seems like a self fulfilling prophecy.

 

[Nobody]

Good questions! I started my journey at 56, getting my L1 in December and starting to teach in the Spring. I was able to teach because I started at Breckenridge, where my hourly wage $9/hour (more or less the same wage that my mentor started at in 1981) was attractive to my employer. I also had the advantage of having taken many many lessons myself, including a fair number of private lessons with national demo team members. I passed my L2 the following year. As my coach was a supervisor in Aspen, he was able to offer me (very) part time employment at Snowmass, and I went all-in.

Now I'm working on my L3. Fortunately, we do not have the Eurotest to obtain a L3, otherwise I doubt it would ever be achievable for me. I've had the objective of skiing at the L3 standard since I started this journey. The more my skiing has improved, the further away from the L3 standard I've realized I am. And for me it has never been about pay, or priority in teaching -- it always has been about achieving a goal that is objectively measured.

So, at my advancing age (I turn 63 this weekend), I've been considering whether to accept defeat or to continue trying to achieve the standard. My groomer skiing is close to the mark, but it has required years of effort to remake my skiing to be more efficient and I've purposefully minimized terrain skiing to avoid feeding default movement patterns. Whether I now can achieve the level of athleticism necessary to pass the L3 standard in terrain is a question I have.

There's no way that I will recoup the investment I've made to remake my skiing. In fact, I invest my ski teaching income in purchasing private coaching. It's not an economic decision for me -- it is about achieving a goal.

After being injured with a season ending training accident last year, I thought about declaring defeat. This season, I feel my skiing is reaching a level where it may be possible for me to achieve my objective, perhaps next season. So, I'm feeling more optimistic about my prospects and currently plan to take the exam next season.

Mike

You're spot on! For me it all began as a goal to achieve, a way to tell myself, "I did it". But also as something that I could do while on the mountains, beyond "just skiing". As you said, the further in the journey I went, the more I realized how much I still had (and still have) to learn. I am not far from the U3 standards, in the past 2 attempts I've been 1.5 to 2 points below the minimum. But it is very frustrating to be that close and see the goal slip, literally, through one's fingers for four (now) times. And each year...I'm getting one year older...As I said in another thread, my season is basically over so, no skiing, no training, no new exam attempts (if nothing rapidly changes in the current sistuation) until next season...and that means that I'll start to ski way below the standards (of tech skiing) I've reached now...

 

[Mike King]

You're spot on! For me it all began as a goal to achieve, a way to tell myself, "I did it". But also as something that I could do while on the mountains, beyond "just skiing". As you said, the further in the journey I went, the more I realized how much I still had (and still have) to learn. I am not far from the U3 standards, in the past 2 attempts I've been 1.5 to 2 points below the minimum. But it is very frustrating to be that close and see the goal slip, literally, through one's fingers for four (now) times. And each year...I'm getting one year older...As I said in another thread, my season is basically over so, no skiing, no training, no new exam attempts (if nothing rapidly changes in the current sistuation) until next season...and that means that I'll start to ski way below the standards (of tech skiing) I've reached now...

Don't give up! And there is the Southern Hemisphere, assuming that the Coronavirus doesn't take that away. Namely, Rookies Academy. I'm thinking of going. But right now, it looks like the spousal trip to Ireland may be in jeopardy of slipping away due to the pandemic. So, maybe the Southern Hemisphere will have to await another year...

 

[Nobody]

Don't give up! And there is the Southern Hemisphere, assuming that the Coronavirus doesn't take that away. Namely, Rookies Academy. I'm thinking of going. But right now, it looks like the spousal trip to Ireland may be in jeopardy of slipping away due to the pandemic. So, maybe the Southern Hemisphere will have to await another year...

Well, as it turned out, this COVID-19 thing has taken by storm the entire world. In any case, and let's hope it will steadily do so, life is slowly getting back to an almost normal state, at least here... so, while LA is not presently an option, this past week end I've been able to put on my GS equipment (skis-boots-racesuit, helmet etc) for a two days GS racing training clinic at L2A, France. Mixed results but at least I've not completely forgotten how to ski and, according to the coach, I've picked up pretty much from where I had stopped last february when we last skied together; let's hope it will continue to be so (that we will be able to egularly , even if periodically, ski throughout the summer, and that I will keep on improving).

 

[4ster]

Well, as it turned out, this COVID-19 thing has taken by storm the entire world. In any case, and let's hope it will steadily do so, life is slowly getting back to an almost normal state, at least here... so, while LA is not presently an option, this past week end I've been able to put on my GS equipment (skis-boots-racesuit, helmet etc) for a two days GS racing training clinic at L2A, France. Mixed results but at least I've not completely forgotten how to ski and, according to the coach, I've picked up pretty much from where I had stopped last february when we last skied together; let's hope it will continue to be so (that we will be able to egularly , even if periodically, ski throughout the summer, and that I will keep on improving).

Glad to hear things are going well for summer skiing in the Alps. I have heard some other good reports from over there.
Sad to say that things don’t seem to be going as well here & although camps on the Palmer snowfield at mt. hood seem to be going well, my hopes for a normal ski season this winter in the US are not so optimistic.

 

[mister moose]

I've had the objective of skiing at the L3 standard since I started this journey. The more my skiing has improved, the further away from the L3 standard I've realized I am. And for me it has never been about pay, or priority in teaching -- it always has been about achieving a goal that is objectively measured.

So, at my advancing age (I turn 63 this weekend), I've been considering whether to accept defeat or to continue trying to achieve the standard. My groomer skiing is close to the mark, but it has required years of effort to remake my skiing to be more efficient and I've purposefully minimized terrain skiing to avoid feeding default movement patterns. Whether I now can achieve the level of athleticism necessary to pass the L3 standard in terrain is a question I have.

There's no way that I will recoup the investment I've made to remake my skiing. In fact, I invest my ski teaching income in purchasing private coaching. It's not an economic decision for me -- it is about achieving a goal.

After being injured with a season ending training accident last year, I thought about declaring defeat. This season, I feel my skiing is reaching a level where it may be possible for me to achieve my objective, perhaps next season. So, I'm feeling more optimistic about my prospects and currently plan to take the exam next season.

A gold pin a worthy goal, but there are others. You can work on constantly improving aspects of your skiing and gain strength and skill. Get better every week, every month, every season. You can become a better teacher, something that is so wide ranging there is always more to learn. Because at the end of the day, to generate any repeat clients, to create AHA! moments in your students, to succeed as an instructor, it's your skiing ability and your teaching ability that carries the day. A goal of just the pin for the pin's sake will leave you with less. No one ever looked down from a chairlift and said, wow, look at the pin on that skier!

 

[Nobody]

Glad to hear things are going well for summer skiing in the Alps. I have heard some other good reports from over there.
Sad to say that things don’t seem to be going as well here & although camps on the Palmer snowfield at mt. hood seem to be going well, my hopes for a normal ski season this winter in the US are not so optimistic.

Well we are all trying to adapt to this "new normal", some way or another, mind you, even here there are the "pro" and "contra" wearing of masks "parties". I plan , as an example and as an absolute minimal precautionary measure , to wear a face mask throughout all this winter, all the time while "skiing" (in truth while queuing and on multi ppl lifts) except when maybe skinning uphill, when skiing downhill iehter offpiste or on piste all venues where I will keep a mask "handy", hanging on my neck, ready to be put on (and the more on a GS track of course, but as soon as I will stop, mask will go up again). Even if the rule will be lifted (as of now, the "always on mask when outisde of your home" policy has been officially withdrawn July 15th - it is still compulsory when entering enclosed public spaces and public transportation systems, in short, in any place where social distancing cannot be kept for any reason). Back to this past week end, crowds were not so high at the glacier, and nearly everyone was complying with the mask on and social distancing policies (even while at in the valley village) but so to speak the demographic skiing this week end was comprised of training racers (from national athletes to not-real-racers-old-farts-like-me) attending ski instructor course (from various countries) candidates and ski professional or the very sport passionate, all people who were keen to keep on skiing and in order to do that weredoing what was necessary. Plus lifties/patrollers were there to enforce the rules as much as possible (to the few non-complying ppl) It remains to be seen what will happen when the normal demographic of weekend skiers and vacationers (more interested in aprés life that actually in skiing) will appear this winter and in which numbers.

A gold pin a worthy goal, but there are others. You can work on constantly improving aspects of your skiing and gain strength and skill. Get better every week, every month, every season. You can become a better teacher, something that is so wide ranging there is always more to learn. Because at the end of the day, to generate any repeat clients, to create AHA! moments in your students, to succeed as an instructor, it's your skiing ability and your teaching ability that carries the day. A goal of just the pin for the pin's sake will leave you with less. No one ever looked down from a chairlift and said, wow, look at the pin on that skier!

Very much so! To see the light of understanding sparkle in a student's eyes (I have had occasional stints at training newly hired - and not so newly hired - colleagues at work, as an example, in my "field of knowldege"; but also experiences with beginners - both adults and kids - inline skaters, so , yes, I wholeheartedly agree with you) it is very rewarding.
This said, in my personal present specific situation, if I do not attain the highest level, it will be nearly impossible or economically non-convenient for me to teach skiing. Making all the efforts (training, travels, hours of study, all time taken away from my family, because having a day job, I was dedicating vacations and weekends to this task) at improving myself I have put in the past 4 years in my skiing, essentially nil; and a -relative- lot of money (which again , with hindsight now, could have been better employed for and by my family) invested thrown out of the window. What I mean to say is that, if I fail to get that "gold pin" (its equivalent here, actually), I will never be able to demonstrate to students my skiing ability and to put whatever teaching ability I posses to test (and up for improvement) , and will be forever relegated to "being looked at form the chairlift", stuck in the middle of the ford...

 

[LiquidFeet]

Best of luck, @Nobody, at getting that certification so you can teach. Have you found that the training you've paid for was genuinely helpful? Do you have a favorite trainer whom you use more than others? What are you working on, specifically, right now?

 

[Mike King]

A gold pin a worthy goal, but there are others. You can work on constantly improving aspects of your skiing and gain strength and skill. Get better every week, every month, every season. You can become a better teacher, something that is so wide ranging there is always more to learn. Because at the end of the day, to generate any repeat clients, to create AHA! moments in your students, to succeed as an instructor, it's your skiing ability and your teaching ability that carries the day. A goal of just the pin for the pin's sake will leave you with less. No one ever looked down from a chairlift and said, wow, look at the pin on that skier!

The pin is just confirmation that I've arrived at my goal -- which was (is) to ski at the level 3 standard.

Mike

 

[LiquidFeet]

A gold pin a worthy goal, but there are others. You can work on constantly improving aspects of your skiing and gain strength and skill. Get better every week, every month, every season. You can become a better teacher, something that is so wide ranging there is always more to learn. Because at the end of the day, to generate any repeat clients, to create AHA! moments in your students, to succeed as an instructor, it's your skiing ability and your teaching ability that carries the day. A goal of just the pin for the pin's sake will leave you with less. No one ever looked down from a chairlift and said, wow, look at the pin on that skier!

@mister moose, I expect you are attempting with this post to reassure instructors who are chasing higher certification that there's another way that might be less stressful and less disappointing. It sounds like you are saying stop attempting to get the pin.

Do you have your LIII? If you do, does it mean anything to you in your professional world now? Or did it when you first got it? Still assuming you have it, did you work hard for it and feel a surge of success when it was awarded?

Or do you not have a LIII? How does not having it impact your professional world? Did not having it ever have an impact in the locker room or on the line, or when people were being chosen to lead special programs?

Assuming the pin still means something for instructors, and assuming it's worth chasing and getting for that reason, then reassurances of the sort you are making sound like suggestions to give up because it's going to be too hard for the person receiving the advice to succeed. I don't think you mean it this way, do you?

 

[Bad Bob]

We chase The Pin, because as beginning instructors we are drilled that it should be the goal. It is a statement between peers, but the vast majority of students really don't care. Who should we try to impress, should we try to impress anyone? It is all about the chase not the capture.
In our current world being flexible in our plans and goals is essential. To see our reality change regularly is just 'Kismet'; not a loss, just fate. The worst thing that happened to you is you got better at your passion. Find the excitement on the new paths.
I am an old 'has been'. Went as far as being an Examiner and a Divisional head of Education in my teaching days long long ago. Like many I got burned out, life got in the way, and quit teaching. Gave up the pin because it just wasn't worth the time or expense to maintain it. There are no regrets for that choice.
Planning to teach this winter part-time, or at least do the Fall Clinics. The idea of being newbie instructor again is very exciting personally. Should I chase my LI?

 

[mister moose]

A gold pin a worthy goal, ...

I expect you are attempting with this post to reassure instructors who are chasing higher certification that there's another way that might be less stressful and less disappointing. It sounds like you are saying stop attempting to get the pin.

No, I'm not saying 'stop attempting to get the pin' at all. I'm saying if it doesn't happen for you, you can still pursue excellence. I have accumulated a fair number of degrees, licenses and certifications. They were all milestones, but only that. When the milestone is in the rear view mirror, we see a far more complex journey than just the milestone. And most milestones are merely the license to learn more.

Mike King said, "I've been considering whether to accept defeat or to continue trying to achieve the standard. " I'm saying rather than characterize it as defeat, change your course a little if need be. Plateaus eventually lead to the end of the plateau. We all move at different rates.

I have had doctors that were mediocre, and doctors that excelled. Both had MD's. I've had teachers that merely checked the boxes and teachers that were lasting additions to my education. Both had very similar credentials. When I found recommendations of the doctor that excelled, no one was saying what med school he went to. Everyone was talking about the quality of his work.

So perhaps it boils down to this: Are you skiing for the pin, or are you skiing towards excellence? While they are related, they aren't the same. The pin is a milestone, excellence is a continuing journey. If you have LII and LIII seems elusive, you aren't getting fired. You can still teach. And you can still pursue excellence. You can still get better every season.

The best instructors I know aren't the best because they ski the best. They are the best instructors because they have achieved a greater mastery of how to effectively transfer knowledge. They pursued excellence in their craft. They have that drive.

 

[LiquidFeet]

@mister moose, you are so right. These things you are saying are things I think about all the time.

I know @Mike King is going to get his LIII pin. I too am chasing that pin, but I am not likely to get it. My body is getting old, I have knee issues, and wait for it -- I'm 70 now -- and about to lose an entire season. Mike is a young 63 with lots of time. I'm rooting for him.

 

[HDSkiing]

I know @Mike King is going to get his LIII pin. I too am chasing that pin, but I am not likely to get it. My body is getting old, I have knee issues, and wait for it -- I'm 70 now -- and about to lose an entire season. Mike is a young 63 with lots of time. I'm rooting for him.

A couple seasons back during Member Schools Meeting in RM there was some talk, about creating a L3-coaching designation. Essentially it was for those able to pass the MA and teaching, but perhaps due to injury (or a lifetime of skiing) some of the skiing tasks would be waived for that cert. The idea was that like a coach who may not be able to out ski the athlete they are training, they were nonetheless expert at analyzing movements/techniques/skill etc. and then are able to design drills etc. to address that area.

I don’t know what ever became of that concept but for some this might be a way to recognize their ability to do MA and teach at that level, but are unable to get the pin because their knees couldn’t take the stress of training for Leapers or one of the tasks Required.

I know this would expand the levels, but it seems imprudent to take someone at 9/10 of that level and not have a recognized place for them when there is a need for such professionals.

 

[Nobody]

Best of luck, @Nobody, at getting that certification so you can teach. Have you found that the training you've paid for was genuinely helpful? Do you have a favorite trainer whom you use more than others? What are you working on, specifically, right now?

Thanks @LiquidFeet, I sure do hope I will, but...see last quote and comment from me...
The training I have received (and paid for) in these past four years, since when joining the program has been very , immensely helpful.
I am so much a better skier after receiving it, I acquired not only technical skills but also awareness of those skills and when and how to employ each one (not only, but to apply it with purpose and at request)
Although I have been working with a small group of trainers (about 6 national ski instructors, plus one race coach who is also a national ski instructor), I can't really say that I have a favorite one, I've been working with whomever of them has been available. The training they deliver is so consistent across them, that the differences, not really differences I'd rather say nuances at worst, boil down to specifics brought in by character, body type and age.
Not being a racer, or of racing background (I'm not a racer, never been) I have a lot of work to do on the GS race track, that is my major drawback.
Then on the technical side, consistency.
I have to work on consistency across the whole spectrum of the exercises that have to be presented at the exam. So that, even on a bad day, I will perform well enough to score a pass without doubts.

@mister moose, you are so right. These things you are saying are things I think about all the time.

I know @Mike King is going to get his LIII pin. I too am chasing that pin, but I am not likely to get it. My body is getting old, I have knee issues, and wait for it -- I'm 70 now -- and about to lose an entire season. Mike is a young 63 with lots of time. I'm rooting for him.

What @mister moose says is spot on, me too think about that all the time
See @LiquidFeet, despite being "only" 55, I feel the same as you, and with every failed attempt, increasingly very much so. I feel like Dexter Rutecki comment after the tryout at the AE Ski School "Ehy Teej, I didn't make the cut, did I?"