Things we can learn from golf and vice versa

[JESinstr]

As many skiers hang up their skis for the season, they reach for their clubs. When it comes to outcomes, both these sports rely on the ability to create Centripetal turning force. In skiing, it is the result of carving actions. In golf, it is the result of swing development and the circular path of the club head in relation to the intended trajectory of the ball.

One of the YouTube educators I follow is Mike Malaska. IMO, Mike does a good job at addressing the realities of the sport and providing clear and logical explanations. In the following Video, he addresses the subject of rotation/turning, hip movement and straight line forces. He makes the point (which is what caught my attention) that the human body works in straight line forces and that how we use and interpret the word "turn" is often misconstrued.

Not sure I know the biomechanical answer which is why I invite input regarding the subject of how counter is developed in the context of carving a turn.

Whereas Mike shows us the reality of how the pelvis gets "turned" in a golf swing (this has improved my game significantly BTW) I would like here from you on how the pelvis gets "Turned" (Countered) during the execution of a carving action. My first thought is that it is just the opposite of golf. It is the shortening (collapsing) of the inside leg that allows for increased angulation/inclination. In a static off ski environment, I find that a shortening (flexing/bending) of the inside leg combined with (supported) inclination, moves the inside hip forward PROVIDED I maintain balance/pressure through the center of the arch of the outside foot.

Enjoy the video, I find there is a lot of common understanding to be had here on how the body works.

 

[LiquidFeet]

....Not sure I know the biomechanical answer which is why I invite input regarding the subject of how counter is developed in the context of carving a turn.
....It is the shortening (collapsing) of the inside leg that allows for increased angulation/inclination. In a static off ski environment, I find that a shortening (flexing/bending) of the inside leg combined with (supported) inclination, moves the inside hip forward PROVIDED I maintain balance/pressure through the center of the arch of the outside foot.

@JESinstr, "How the pelvis gets "Turned" (Countered) during the execution of a carving action" is a great thread topic. Below are some random thoughts. The first three address carved turns (using the narrow definition) directly.

1. I've always liked Paul Lorenz's article on how much counter and angulation are needed in a turn. Here's an image from that article. He makes some unexpected points about how much angulation is good. https://www.paullorenzclinics.com/post/angulation-or-inclination-what-s-the-point

2. Here's a page on @razie'a website Effective Skiing explaining how counter is developed. He refers to "The Wall" which race coaches talk about. The inside boot cuff forces the inside boot/ski forward, which brings the inside hip and shoulder with it.

The wall

.
Razie points out that there is no rule, however, and that racers add more separation/counter as needed. He's got good pictures showing the range of counter at http://www.effectiveskiing.com/Topic/Coiling.

3. The USSA material I have mentions "The Wall." In its glossary definition:
wall: A body alignment mnemonic that refers to the ski tips, boots, knees, hips, shoulders, and hands remaining parallel throughout the entire turn.

4. Leaning-in/banking and bracing are common problems that happen when counter and angulation are not adjusted for maximum effect.
Leaning-in/banking can happen with or without angulation at the neck:

Bracing is when leaning-in/banking happens with a wide stance and while pushing the outside ski away to get an edge. It can also involve angulation at the neck.

 

[crgildart]

There is definitely such a thing as trying too hard.

 

[LiquidFeet]

@crgildart, how do you know when you're trying too hard?
What do you do to fix it?

 

[crgildart]

@crgildart, how do you know when you're trying too hard?
What do you do to fix it?

Diminshing returns to scale. I hit it when fatigue sets in or when I'm over thinking something and just need to relax and have fun.

 

[JESinstr]

@LiquidFeet thanks for the input above but I am coming at this from another angle.

As Mike states (Beginning at 1:00 in) "TURN" (as related to body direction change) is an effect of what your pelvis and joints do. So, in the context of countering while carving, (assuming you believe in bottoms up skiing) if an instructor tells their student to turn their hips/pelvis (skeletal parts often improperly identified as the same thing), that isn't what you are trying to do according to Malaska. The countered position that we observe is the result of a straight line force being applied to one of the hip joints.

Now, we can all put our arm out and lean against a wall but that action alone does not produce a countered pelvis. However, as your pelvis engages in the angulation process (moves toward the wall) and you begin to flex/raise your inside knee (with feet aligned in parallel) , the higher you raise it, the more your pelvis wants to rotate around the outside hip socket creating a countered condition.

So back to my question. What is source of the straight line force that causes the pelvis to rotate around the outside leg's hip joint creating the countered position? I don't think it is the push of centripetal force coming up from the ski but instead some combination of muscular actions used in the creation of angles enabled by the flexing of the inside leg. This makes sense as the extremes that Lorenz shows above requires high levels of strength and FLEXIBILITY.

And if this turns out to be true, then we can surmise how important a role the inside leg plays in the creation of the carving state. Not so much in a ski snow engagement role but in a edge building role.

This making any sense?

 

[LiquidFeet]

....However, as your pelvis engages in the angulation process (moves toward the wall) and you begin to flex/raise your inside knee (with feet aligned in parallel) , the higher you raise it, the more your pelvis wants to rotate around the outside hip socket creating a countered condition.....
....What is source of the straight line force that causes the pelvis to rotate around the outside leg's hip joint creating the countered position?....

@JESinstr, here's what I think.
1. When one is on a hill with skis pointing across the fall line, the hill causes the uphill foot to be higher than the downhill foot and that leg flexes. Since during a turn the skis spend time pointing across the hill, that uphill leg will get flexed - for all skiers, no matter the turn nor the skill level.
2. When a skier wants to increase the ski-snow edge angle, flexing the inside leg does the trick. Since skiers want to build and control their edges when doing arc-to-arc carving, flexing that inside leg more than the outside leg can happen even when that leg is not uphill of the other leg.
3. So we have two reasons to have one leg more flexed than the other. This is important.
4. The boot cuffs are stiff. They don't allow one ankle to dorsiflex more than the other ankle, or they shouldn't if they fit right. Equal dorsiflexing in both ankles, when one leg is more flexed than the other, causes the boot cuff on the flexed leg to force that foot forward. The point: flexing the inside leg more than the outside leg produces the inside foot forward and creates inside tip lead.
5. When that inside foot moves forward beyond the outside foot, it pulls the knee above it forward, and the knee in turn pulls the hip above it forward. The inside half of the pelvis ends up ahead of the outside half -- and we've got "counter." When the inside tip lead lines up with inside knee lead and inside hip lead, this matching threesome is called "The Wall."
6. This counter happens passively because of the boot cuff's stiffness effect on the flexed leg's position.

I assume you know all this. Does it in any way impact your search for a straight line force causing one side of the pelvis to rotate around the other? Can the foot's movement forward and its pull on the leg and pelvis above it count as a straight line force?

 

[Bad Bob]

There is definitely such a thing as trying too hard.

Oh boy howdy!
This can produce more bad swings and bad skiing than nearly anything.

@crgildart, how do you know when you're trying too hard?
What do you do to fix it?

Only let work on one swing thought at a time with a club in your hands.
Skiing very similar one thought at a time for working on. A crowded brain is a clouded brain.

 

[JESinstr]

Only let work on one swing thought at a time with a club in your hands.
Skiing very similar one thought at a time for working on. A crowded brain is a clouded brain.

And as they voiced in the Malaska video, the single thought concept of pushing the hip back with the leg addresses a number of swing thoughts into one.

When getting into a carving state, My single thought is shortening my inside leg. Granted, I have now trained myself that the conscious shortening of my leg triggers a number of other ingrained movement patterns.

Like wise in golf, the single thought of pushing my hip back with my leg does the same except that a few of the needed movement patterns are not fully ingraned and therefore inconsistency is still a problem.

 

[crgildart]

How long will we have to wait for that photo of @Tricia playing golf in ski boots?

 

[Tricia]

How long will we have to wait for that photo of @Tricia playing golf in ski boots?

Oh that picture is so old...

 

[fatbob]

If I have to learn things from golf I'm quitting skiing.....

Things to learn from golf - people with too much time and money on their hands spend too much time worrying about minutiae while failing to recognise they'll never be Tiger or Jordan or Rory or Annika and they could just be out enjoying themselves

 

[JESinstr]

If I have to learn things from golf I'm quitting skiing.....

Things to learn from golf - people with too much time and money on their hands spend too much time worrying about minutiae while failing to recognise they'll never be Tiger or Jordan or Rory or Annika and they could just be out enjoying themselves

There are those who are out for the experience and get enjoyment from that. There are those out there seeking to learn and achieve and get enjoyment from doing that. But the best enjoyment is gotten from doing both.

 

[fatbob]

How dare you seek to limit my enjoyment by putting a prescriptive definition on what is best enjoyment!

More seriously - yes you are right. As a predominantly non-golfer though I have an intrinsic bias against golf nerds/bores telling me about all the life and bio-mechanic lessons I can learn from golf.

 

[locknload]

As many skiers hang up their skis for the season, they reach for their clubs. When it comes to outcomes, both these sports rely on the ability to create Centripetal turning force. In skiing, it is the result of carving actions. In golf, it is the result of swing development and the circular path of the club head in relation to the intended trajectory of the ball.

One of the YouTube educators I follow is Mike Malaska. IMO, Mike does a good job at addressing the realities of the sport and providing clear and logical explanations. In the following Video, he addresses the subject of rotation/turning, hip movement and straight line forces. He makes the point (which is what caught my attention) that the human body works in straight line forces and that how we use and interpret the word "turn" is often misconstrued.

Not sure I know the biomechanical answer which is why I invite input regarding the subject of how counter is developed in the context of carving a turn.

Whereas Mike shows us the reality of how the pelvis gets "turned" in a golf swing (this has improved my game significantly BTW) I would like here from you on how the pelvis gets "Turned" (Countered) during the execution of a carving action. My first thought is that it is just the opposite of golf. It is the shortening (collapsing) of the inside leg that allows for increased angulation/inclination. In a static off ski environment, I find that a shortening (flexing/bending) of the inside leg combined with (supported) inclination, moves the inside hip forward PROVIDED I maintain balance/pressure through the center of the arch of the outside foot.

Enjoy the video, I find there is a lot of common understanding to be had here on how the body works.

I like this video a lot. Like all instruction...I often find multiple teachers are teaching the same concept but expressing in different ways. Nothing he is teaching here is new to me, conceptually, but the way he teaches it (emphasis on linear movements etc) is a great visual that help me focus on the practice range. Thx for sharing this. I'll check out some of his other stuff. I also like the guys at Athletic Motion Golf....I love the way they break the swing down and emphasize that is a dynamic movement (like skiing) and they approach it as such and their use of gears and comparisons to Tour players are really helpful to me.

 

[LiquidFeet]

....pushing my hip back....

@JESinstr, when skiing, do you ever muscularly move your outside hip back? If yes, have you found it helpful, and if yes, in what way?

I do this. I've not found anyone talking about it in ski instruction. Maybe I've missed it.
But since I haven't encountered anyone writing or talking about it, I've concluded that skiers are not supposed to do it, and that I'm an outlier. I'm OK with that, because the results are good.

I hope you see this post, because I am genuinely interested in your answer. The golf video prompted me to ask.

 

[Bad Bob]

Have learned that ski companies are much better at marketing than golf club companies.

How many active sets of golf clubs do you have compared to number of pairs of skis?

 

[Coach13]

@crgildart, how do you know when you're trying too hard?
What do you do to fix it?

Muscles are tense and tight when trying too hard. Conversely, loose muscles are quick and adaptable.

I think you fix this by practicing and preparing until you are comfortable and confident and can perform the required athletic movements without thinking about them. In reality, I think “trying too hard” is really a symptom of not being adequately prepared and confident.

Both golf and skiing are thinking sports, but from a strategic standpoint. If I want to hit a lousy golf shot or ski a lousy run, all I need to do is over think it before I do it. When I approach the ball when walking up to it, I plan where and how I want the shot to go and set up and hit the shot. When I get off the lift, I take a quick look to select my initial line and then go.

 

[Coach13]

Have learned that ski companies are much better at marketing than golf club companies.

How many active sets of golf clubs do you have compared to number of pairs of skis?

In terms of complete sets maybe, but club manufacturers have sold a ton of wedges, drivers and putters to the same folks looking for that extra 20 yards off the tee or to shave a few strokes off their scores.

Most serious golfers have several drivers putters and wedges in their garage.

 

[Bad Bob]

In terms of complete sets maybe, but club manufacturers have sold a ton of wedges, drivers and putters to the same folks looking for that extra 20 yards off the tee or to shave a few strokes off their scores.

Most serious golfers have several drivers putters and wedges in their garage.

Oh, I do! Normally only have 1 bag I play with and a guest/loaner set or two in the garage. The ski rack by comparison has three active pairs with space for a probable new friend, and I am a piker compared to MANY members on here.

Just saying that with a fairly comparable price tag between a set of clubs and a pair of skis and bindings the golf industry has much to learn here.