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Thinking about a gravel bike

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mikes781

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Lol getting comfortable if not enjoying pain is a requirement.

Spent some time in a local bike shop this afternoon and got on a Trek Domane AL 5 and SL 6 snd Cannondale Topstone 2 and Carbon 3. The shop employee was very helpful and recommended either of the Topstones and a Topstone 1 that he might be able to get in. He thought the Domane was a little too road biased for our local trails. The Topstones would be a little more flexible. They all seemed like good fits and comfortable. I liked the shop but I’m going to visit a few others this coming weekend and try to get their take on the Domane and get on a Checkpoint. There’s a few nearby that also carry Specialized, Orbea, Giant and Liv.
 
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mikes781

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So as I’ve been doing some more research and one warning that seems to be coming up is to be mindful of bikes built with a lot of proprietary parts in the event that you want/need to replace them. I’ve seen a few bikes that I’ve looked at have pressed vs threaded bottom brackets with the pressed posing some problems to work on. Should this be a concern? With the Topstone the rear wheel has a non-standard offset. I need to ask the shop but this might not be the case with the current model. Is this really a problem when replacing wheels? I’ve seen some say it’s not a big deal and the new wheel can just be modified.
 

crosscountry

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I'm not up on the latest tech. So can't answer the specifics.

My philosophy is, if I find a bike is superior to all the others I've tried? I'll take it, proprietary part or not.

But if my short list all have pros and cons? Proprietary parts goes into the cons bin, which most likely drop the bike off the short list. ;)

You seem to be a smart shopper, asking all the right questions, doing all the right things in testing etc. So, trust your own gut feeling.
 

scott43

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So I've been working on bikes since 1981. Lemme tell you there was more crap back then than now. Yes there are different parts but they're all available and pretty good at this time. I never liked press fit BB but really if it's executed properly it's not terrible. I would prefer some decent standards so you can get what you want but I wouldn't shy away necessarily if what is offered works. Having said that Cannondale does some funky things...
 
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mikes781

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Thanks I did confirm for at least one of the Topstones the when to threaded BB for the 2022 version. It also seems they either went to standard offset for either the 2022 or coming 2023 model. I’m going to got to a local trek store tomorrow. Im not sure that Domanes that I looked at were actual gravel and not road bikes. Didn’t realize that they are both Domanes with the letters afterwards separating the models. :rolleyes:
 

crosscountry

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Im not sure that Domanes that I looked at were actual gravel and not road bikes. Didn’t realize that they are both Domanes with the letters afterwards separating the models.
Domanes are "road bike".

But there are two different versions of Domane. The high end version with carbon frame has a shock absorbing element in the rear triangle that makes it a little cushier. It rides like a dream, but won't take a rear rack/pannier due to the shock absorbing (i.e. moving) rear triangle, which is a deal breaker for me.

Personally, I'm not going to fall for the catch words. Check the geometry parameter, if you're so inclined. But the real deal is how it rides. If it rides nice on broken pavement, it's a gravel bike. If it toss you all over the place, it's not.

Oh, depends on your weight, you may want to adjust the tire pressure. When I test rode the Domane, the shop guy add air into the tire. But after riding about half a block, I stopped and let a lot of the air out of the tire. It rides a whole lot nicer as a result! :)

I believe Trek had simplified its line up now. There's only 1 "racing" bike, a "road" bike which is the Domane, then the Checkpoint, which is a heavy duty beast gravel bike.
 
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mikes781

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I’m definitely in Clyde territory. 6’3” and 250 but dropping rapidly. Will probably settle in around 230 or 240.
 

dan ross

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So I've been working on bikes since 1981. Lemme tell you there was more crap back then than now.
Oh yeah. The 70’s “ bike boom” created a lot of crap. Shimano used to put 5 new ( often good) ideas into one component, usually introduced at the bottom end of the price spectrum. Some of their ideas survived but acceptance was hard. Early attempts at index shifting (Positron?) were good ideas and were refined but initially met with scorn. I was one of those doing the scorning. :huh: And you know how the rest goes . Anyway, I’m weary of proprietary parts as to me it limits the bikes potential utility down the road. For me “building “the bike
with the parts I want in the combination I want is fun and occasionally challenging.
 
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firebanex

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Definitely get on a Checkpoint after the Domane, it's a much different bike. I also test rode both bikes prior to picking up an ALR Driftless Checkpoint Frame last fall. It is such a comfy stable bike to ride. The only bit of carbon on mine is the seat post, everything else is aluminum Did GRX 810 series 1x drivetrain 42x 11-40, I'm quite partial to 1x as I like a quiet bike and hate shifting a front derailur. I also don't mind cadence changes but this bike sees adventure riding and commuting, neither of which demand I hold a specific cadence or speed.

If you are still deciding on sizing, I'm 6' and 210#'s before gear. I went with a size 58 Checkpoint, one 10mm spacer, 80mm -7* stem, and the Ritchey Ergomax WCS bars have about a 10mm rise a touch of sweep to them. Bike fits me good and I've got zero worries about weight being an issue for the bike.

It appears that I never actually took a good picture of my bike once I finished building it.. I just went and rode it a ton before winter started. Pardon the unfinished siding on my house.. it was a project that I delayed on and still haven't finished.
20220924_092638 t.jpg
 

scott43

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It's interesting, mfgs moved toward press fit likely for speed of mfg and assembly. And they aren't terrible, many apps use them. But done poorly you get lots of things popping up. I've noticed that the Al Domane has 68mm threaded again, which is kind of the standard before press came along. So maybe that experience has pushed mfgs back to threaded.
 

Tom K.

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I’ve seen a few bikes that I’ve looked at have pressed vs threaded bottom brackets with the pressed posing some problems to work on. Should this be a concern?

Not really, but I slightly prefer threaded. Not a purchase-making decision. I've had plenty of both, and they can both go bad. Admittedly, it's far easier to replace the threaded version in your own garage.

With the Topstone the rear wheel has a non-standard offset. I need to ask the shop but this might not be the case with the current model. Is this really a problem when replacing wheels? I’ve seen some say it’s not a big deal and the new wheel can just be modified.

THIS drives me nuts, though replacing a wheel just means 10 or 15 minutes in a truing stand, twiddling spoke nipples slowly and patiently.
 

cantunamunch

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Heh, if I was even looking at a Topstone, I'd totally be looking at the Carbon Lefty. Because jeep ruts on flat double track and because big flint chunks and because broken crumbly asphalt. It's kind of like getting a boutique, lighter, C-dale version of an XPLR bike.

Double bladed fixed fork Topstone...err... can I just get a CAADX instead, pls?

Custom rear wheel offset- bah - I can totally get over that given all the other nonstandard buy-ins.
 

bitflogger

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Another vote for steel frames. Best ride ( less fatiguing) .durable
That one in the pic is a bunch of titanium mixed with AL and plastic but yeah and even better ride. The Route 45 and Fargo are the keepers after having a few bikes that fit in the gravel/tour/adventure realm.
So as I’ve been doing some more research and one warning that seems to be coming up is to be mindful of bikes built with a lot of proprietary parts in the event that you want/need to replace them. I’ve seen a few bikes that I’ve looked at have pressed vs threaded bottom brackets with the pressed posing some problems to work on. Should this be a concern? With the Topstone the rear wheel has a non-standard offset. I need to ask the shop but this might not be the case with the current model. Is this really a problem when replacing wheels? I’ve seen some say it’s not a big deal and the new wheel can just be modified.
The big makers sell a LOT of bikes so you should not be too worried about their stuff. You want fit and what is good for you above all. There are web sites that impose a graphic of different models or make a table for you to compare stack height, wheelbase, top tube etc.... do that and make your own spreadsheet of what works well for you.

Be careful of very common shop bias. For example don't let what a young racer thinks is right be too much influence if you are a more casual and older rider.

Look at gear charts along with the advice to use the web sites that compare frames and fit. Again be careful of others' bias. A 1x, 2x, electrical or old school mechanical can all be correct.

Press fit is not the the bother it once seemed to be but everything threaded steel or ti alloy will be your best bet if you are in any combo of hard on stuff, get dirty outside the bedroom or are thinking long-run. Overall a no f*ckry move. You'll be in more expensive frames though.

My ti and custom bike choice was sticker shock but it addressed an upper body shrinking with age and likely a last bike that has and will be used hard, a lot and in all sorts of weather. It happily replaced a road and gravel bike so consider stuff like that as far as budget.

Good luck.
 

Slim

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Gearing, I wanted lower to be honest. I'm not 20 anymore and frankly, a more cx gear would be better for me. Like 46x30 in the front and a 12-34 in the back. I wanted a 2x crank because I do more pavement than gravel and like smaller gear steps, but maybe a 1x is better for you. Bottom line, we're not getting younger so depending on your fitness level, think lower gearing perhaps. I ended up with a 50x34 front and 12-34 rear. I'm not that happy with the 34x34 low gear..as horrendous as that sounds. We have punchy little 1km climbs that are fairly steep (7%) and it's a grind for me.
Just to clarify: CX(cyclocross) gearing is taller and less wide of a spread than gravel/road gearing.
2x CX cranksets have 46/36 chainrings, combined with an ~11-32 casette. These days, 1x are more common for CX.
Either way, for gravel and all road riding, you need a much wider spread of gearing, and most people want a much lower gear than CX gearing would provide.

This was shown to me in a gravel race in the south of MN 10 years ago. My Duluth friends and my wife and I all had low gearing. By mile 80, everything has settled out, we are cruising along in the back 2/3 of the race. I assume people around us are equally strong/weak as us, since they are riding the same speed by this point.
many of the folks from the Twin Cities were on CX gearing (gravel gearing was rare then).
Guess what happened when we hit the two bigger, steeper hills at mile 81 and 89?
Duluthians keep riding, most others walking.

So the moral of that story is two fold:
  1. CX gearing sucks for gravel/all road
  2. When in doubt, go lower

1:1 lowest gear is not sufficient for most recreational riders I know, myself inclouded.
I live in MN, so hardly mountainous, but still enjoy my 40:46 gearing (1:1.15).
On my wife’s bike I put 46/34 front, with 11:36 rear.

If you have lots of pavement and flatter roads, I would still choose 2x. I personally have 1x, and love it for MtB, but for gravel/all road it is not ideal. The benefits are less useful, and the drawbacks are bigger (large steps are nice on mtb, not on road).

Unfortunately, 1x is becoming more and more common in gravel bikes. If you have to do it, try and go 12 speed.
 
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Slim

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Is an all-road bike also called an endurance road bike and do they just have a more upright/relaxed geometry compared to a regular road bike with similar gearing?

First of all, it’s important to realize there are no ISO norms for bike categories.

That said:

Endurance road is a long time category, that was focused on more comfort, through more compliance as well as a more upright geometry (more stack, less reach).
Typically, ’trail’ was either the same, or a tiny bit more than traditional (ie ‘race’ road bikes).
Since the advent of road disc brakes, and tire research, every road category has been increasing tire clearance.
That goes for race, going from 23 or maybe 25mm max clearance to often 28 or 30 now.
Endurance road bikes these days pretty much all fit 32, often 35mm tires.

All road is a newer category name. Most of the time, it refers to a bike with more road bike like geometry (short chainstays and short front center), but clearance for bigger tires.

So in general, I would expect an all road bike and an endurance road bike to be very similar, but the AR to have more tire clearance.

But, all this is not set in stone It’s just marketing.

Pull up geometrygeeks.bike, and compare the actual geometries of bikes you are looking at, and then compare their max tire clearance.
 
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Slim

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@mikes781 , did you say you have the sandy Pine Barrens as a potential riding destination?

If that is true, or for any other sandy riding, go for big tire clearance. 40mm minimum, 50 mm better.

If you are heavier, even more important to go big:

On soft surfaces, it’s the absolute tire pressure that matters. Lets say you are aiming for 30 psi to ride some sandy roads.

A 120lbs rider can do that in a 30mm tire, but a 240lbs rider would need a 60mm tire to get the same ride quality and not flat at 30 psi on firm roads as the 120lbs rider on the 30s!


For a more concrete example:
45 mm tire was not enough for deep sand with roots for me. I’m 170lbs. Add 30 lbs for bike and gear.
Running 52mm tire now for that terrain.
Lets say you are 220lbs, plus 30 lbs bike and gear=250 lbs total, that’s 25% more than me:
That puts you in a 65mm tire to be able to run the same tire pressure (which is key to keep rolling resistance mimimal in soft sand).

The nice thing is, there are plenty of high end, super supple and fast tires in the market now in 40mm , so you do not need to be held back by a wider tire on pavement either.
 
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scott43

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And there's good evidence these days that for most of the paved roads we ride which are usually not spectacular in condition a wider tire is not much slower if at all. I'll be going to 28s for road duty.
 

Slim

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As far as proprietary parts several come to mind:
Stems: as a bike fitter, this my biggest grip. Proprietory stems are never available in the dimensions I need for a fit.
Double check that they allow use of a normal stem as an alternative.
Seat masts (looking at you Trek), less of an issue, but be aware you might be buying a new seatmast, just to adjust fit.

Specific wheels, especially at higher rider weight, I would be leery of that.
 

Slim

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And there's good evidence these days that for most of the paved roads we ride which are usually not spectacular in condition a wider tire is not much slower if at all. I'll be going to 28s for road duty.
I would flip that:
typically a wider tire is faster including on road, even on good roads. On bad roads a wider tire is always faster.
Why only 28mm? It’s a serious question, your bike fits much bigger.
 

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