Thoughts on this video please: buy the highest flex boot you can buy & just loosen the power strap and buckles to get it from highest to lower flex?

[MikeHunt]

 

[onenerdykid]

A few things to note here, and the absolute, most important caveat he only briefly mentions them at the tail-end of the video- not everyone should be skiing XXX-flex. "150" is not suitable for 90% of skiers. The right guideline for flex is this: everyone should ski the stiffest boot that they can still properly flex. This doesn't mean ski the stiffest boot. It means ski the stiffest boot that you can manage and control. For some people, this might be 150, for others this might be 90. Boot flex should be dictated by your weight, height, ankle ROM, strength, and personal preference and very rarely (read: almost never) by how good of a skier your think you are.

While of course tightening your buckles an extra position makes the boot stiffer and loosening it a position makes it softer, I would be very hesitant to recommend anyone ski a boot unbuckled. A loose fitting cuff is a sure-fire way to get shin bang. Shin bang is caused by many things, but mainly a cuff that doesn't securely hold the leg. If the leg can bounce and rattle around, the shin will too and this, more often than not, leads to problems.

Lastly, if "150" is the flex recommendation, this means you are confined to World Cup boots. And again, for 99% of the skiing population this simply won't work. For us lucky skiers with narrow to medium foot shapes, this is relatively easy with a highly competent boot-fitter. But for anyone with a "Hawx Magna" foot shape, you will be spending your ski days in the hurt locker. So, this is also a question of first making sure you are in the correct boot for your foot, and for the vast majority of skiers it means not being in a 150-flex simply based on the fact that most people aren't candidates for a World Cup boot.

If someone spends quality time with their boot-fitter, having the appropriate flex that is based on your weight, height, strength, ankle ROM etc. will (IMO) allow you to ski a very wide variety of terrain and snow conditions without having to worry too much about it or worry you have the wrong flex for the conditions.

 

[François Pugh]

I agree with most of what he says, but I disagree strongly on one point and the jury is still out on another point.

I don't agree with loosening your boots to lower the flex. Straps and buckles need to be tightened up so that boots don't let your feet slip inside them, but not to the point of loosing circulation. If you can't get the no-slip condition without losing circulation your boots don't fit you.

I need more experimentation to be able to say with confidence that softer boots would work better in soft snow and the more, I'll say "difficult", conditions he mentioned. It seems logical; if you don't have the forces to warrant the stiffer boots why not get some forgiveness? That being said I never felt I needed softer boots when I was skiing my uber-stiff boots; I did feel I needed stiffer boots when skiing my cross-max 100s; and, I put the lack of response of my 120 Technicas down to the thick squishy liner. (new liner ordered).

Oh, a super stiff custom foamed liner will add stiffness to a boot.

 

[dbostedo]

Loosening isn't really equivalent to a lower flex though I wouldn't think. It just let's the cuff be larger, and once engaged will be the same flex. Basically I feel like it would be allowing more "play" for your lower leg to move in the cuff. This might let you move to the same position you acheive with a lower flex boot (i.e. you can't flex the stiff boot forward as much as you'd like, but if you loosen you can now get your shin more forward), but it wouldn't be at all the same in terms of flex. Am I missing something?

 

[Scrundy]

Idk but I think it’s personal preference and skiing style. I’ve skied both, a very stiff boot and a soft boot. I much prefer to ski a boot too soft over too stiff.

What I like with softer boots is I can tighten top two buckle’s tight and have immediate response but also have shock absorbing in 3D snow. Probably comes from spending a lot of time in Fulltilt boots.

What I’ve found on very stiff boots is, it beats the hell out of me.... you feel every thing. I’ll take a smooth ride over rough ride any day. To loosen buckle’s too soften boots is really not accurate imho, all your really doing is opening up more ankle flex and losing response.

I can understand why someone would want a super stiff boot if they are able to put huge amount of forward pressure on boot, but them days are long gone for me.

 

[DanoT]

I don't know who the audience is for the guy in the video but I do know that 99% of them do not ski at his level and so they don't need a 150flex race boot.

I once tried to try on 130flex boots and was met with "We don't stock 130flex but can bring some in" at several ski shops in Aspen; Copper; Sandy, Utah; Frisco, CO; however 130flex try on at Jackson Hole and Whistler shops was not a problem at all.

I'm not sure about the lose boot buckles in soft snow. Certainly in deep snow there is a bit of a natural tendency toward heel lift in an up motion, so one wants the boots tight.

 

[MikeHunt]

I don't know who the audience is for the guy in the video but I do know that 99% of them do not ski at his level and so they don't need a 150flex race boot.

I once tried to try on 130flex boots and was met with "We don't stock 130flex but can bring some in" at several ski shops in Aspen; Copper; Sandy, Utah; Frisco, CO; however 130flex try on at Jackson Hole and Whistler shops was not a problem at all.

I'm not sure about the lose boot buckles in soft snow. Certainly in deep snow there is a bit of a natural tendency toward heel lift in an up motion, so one wants the boots tight.

Agree don't know how he prevents heel lift with the loosest mogul setting, which he shows in 2:56 here:

 

[Dave Marshak]

I ski Lange rx110. I find it more forgiving on bumps and crud, but it still works well enough for carving. YMMV.
One year Tommy Moe was skiing at a fundraiser around here. He had the green rx130, but one of the bolts was out, so that’s 110 or 120.

dm

 

[François Pugh]

Agree don't know how he prevents heel lift with the loosest mogul setting, which he shows in 2:56 here:

Giving the devil his due.
Loosening the power strap divorces the rear from the front of the upper boot, which allows the boot to flex easier. Many people here use an after market elastic power strap with different weights to make their boots flex more progressively. I suppose the two buckles also help with not having the rear spine of the upper cuff resist in forward flex.

I have to agree though, in my case, not doing up that 2nd from the top buckle would have my heels riding up.

 

[cantunamunch]

Agree don't know how he prevents heel lift with the loosest mogul setting, which he shows in 2:56 here:

He has a strong and quick hamstring retraction. Just that, and that alone is enough to keep his calf against the boot spine.

. Am I missing something?

He's using plantar flexion at the ankle to keep his ski tips down to the snow.


Picture a striking hammer between two doorbells. You only need a solenoid to yank the clapper to one of the bells, it will rebound into the other. Loosening the other bell and moving it away means less ringing.

The solenoid is the hamstring. The back bell is the boot spine. The clapper is the soft tissue in his leg. He doesn't want that soft tissue to rebound into the front of the boot after that strong yoink against the boot spine.

 

[dbostedo]

Picture a striking hammer between two doorbells. You only need a solenoid to yank the clapper to one of the bells, it will rebound into the other. Loosening the other bell and moving it away means less ringing.

The solenoid is the hamstring. The back bell is the boot spine. The clapper is the soft tissue in his leg. He doesn't want that soft tissue to rebound into the front of the boot after that strong yoink against the boot spine.

OK, but bouncing between the front and back of the cuff is not the same as having a softer flexing boot.

 

[cantunamunch]

OK, but bouncing between the front and back of the cuff is not the same as having a softer flexing boot.

Of course it isn't, but I suspect you didn't quite phrase that the way you wanted to - one is an action verb and one is a status verb of possession


Moving one metal bell away from the clapper and putting it on a sliding mount does have a strongly similar effect to making that same bell softer, like out of plastic - reducing the peak force in good old Fds = mdv.

 

[dbostedo]

Of course it isn't, but I suspect you didn't quite phrase that the way you wanted to

No, I did. I was referring to the subject of the thread and contention in the video that you can make a boot "softer" by loosening he buckles. A softer boot, and a stiffer boot with loosened buckels, aren't really equivalent.

 

[cantunamunch]

No, I did. I was referring to the subject of the thread and contention in the video that you can make a boot "softer" by loosening he buckles.

I got that - but your actual sentence compared an action and a possession.

A softer boot, and a stiffer boot with loosened buckels, aren't really equivalent.

They are practically equivalent if there's no ground reaction force. The only way you or anyone else can tell the difference is if there IS a ground reaction force.

If there is a ground reaction force, you're not down-unweighting strongly enough.

Considering that it took me multiple posts to explain that to physics-literate folks completely justifies his use of equivalency language to a more general viewership.

 

[David Chaus]

Agree with most of what is posted here.

I’ll just add I don’t really care how much the boot flexes, as far as pressure on the front of the boot. What I really care about is the spine of the boot driving me forward, as opposed to the flex on the tongue and the front of the shell. That why I like a Booster strap pretty snug, with no gap between the liner and my leg. I want my forward leg pressure to connect to the spine of the boot with as little lag as possible, and the progressive flex coming from the Booster strap.

I keep my boot buckles on the first latch or two because I have a snug shell fit. Once they are on, I don’t make any adjustments until I remove them. Making the boot tighter on my foot and leg does not help me ski any better or more precisely.

My boot is a Tecnica Mach 1 LV 120, and the only difference between the 120 and 130 is the 130 has a different liner with a bit stiffer tongue, and the power strap is nicer. The shells were basically the same. Since I got an after market line and the Booster Straps, getting the 130 would have been pointless, unless I really liked the color of the 130 shell more (which I didn’t).

 

[cantunamunch]

Here is a nice little video showing rebound off the boot spine during down-unweight, and the bouncing afterwards:

 

[Tricia]

I ski Lange rx110. I find it more forgiving on bumps and crud, but it still works well enough for carving. YMMV.
One year Tommy Moe was skiing at a fundraiser around here. He had the green rx130, but one of the bolts was out, so that’s 110 or 120.

dm

Funny. I read your post and realize that I ski the same boot and have also been skiing a 120 flex K2 boot.
However, its possible that we have very different physiology. I have hyper flexible ankle range of motion. I need a somewhat stiff (but not too stiff) boot to make it work for me.
*emphasis on 'me'
Boot fitting is personal.

 

[oldschoolskier]

There is another discussion of boot flex (can’t remember if it was here or on epic) including skiing with upper cuff loose for some (not something I would ever do, I see it a safety and lack of control thing).

I have a preference towards a stiff boot (including when I weighed next to nothing when I was younger. It’s simply about how fast I could get my input to my skis and soft meant delay. Most of boots over the years had little flex even warm, however I amazed at how much flex shows in the scuff marks on the plastic considering this is done in cold (stiffer) conditions.

Final comment ski stiffness, application and technique all effect on stiffness preference. This is what makes it personal. You understand that you have a decent idea of what you like. Boot fit importance is a assumed given (and requirement).

 

[Mark1975]

Agree don't know how he prevents heel lift with the loosest mogul setting, which he shows in 2:56 here:

More than likely because he is in a custom ground plug. I can do the same thing in my 150 Lange plugs that PJ Dewey made for me. They are ground for my feet and my feet only, so the fit is conforming even with the buckles loose. I can experiment with different buckle tension and my feet stay put. However, I can't get the same effect with any of my off-the-shelf consumer boots that are shaped for to fit as many feet as possible. I need a certain buckle tension in those, or my feet will start to slip around.

 

[Tricia]

There is another discussion of boot flex (can’t remember if it was here or on epic) including skiing with upper cuff loose for some (not something I would ever do, I see it a safety and lack of control thing).

I have a preference towards a stiff boot (including when I weighed next to nothing when I was younger. It’s simply about how fast I could get my input to my skis and soft meant delay. Most of boots over the years had little flex even warm, however I amazed at how much flex shows in the scuff marks on the plastic considering this is done in cold (stiffer) conditions.

Final comment ski stiffness, application and technique all effect on stiffness preference. This is what makes it personal. You understand that you have a decent idea of what you like. Boot fit importance is a assumed given (and requirement).

This thread was here. In fact, there are a few.

On ski boot stiffness: How would you evaluate this theory?

Boot flex in skiing Softer boots: Skiing in softer boots on challenging or steeper terrain, the skier will fall into the front of the boot a lot and become out of balance. It’s like skiing with your boots unbuckled. The skier with a soft boot has to learn to find the base of their foot and...

www.skitalk.com

Question on ski boot flex and skier development

It is often said (on forums in Europe, anyway) that a ski boot with too high a flex can hinder a beginner or lower intermediate skier in his developent. I don't really understand why. If the boot fits properly, and flex really is the only thing in question here: what is it that a developing...

www.skitalk.com