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Time for a Beacon upgrade. Any suggestions?

Mel

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Hi Mel,

Check this site out for a bit of a discount on the barryvox https://motorsportshq.com/products/mammut-barryvox-avalanche-transceiver?_pos=6&_sid=b54272aa6&_ss=r

It might be in your neck of the woods since you posted a MEC link. I just bought one. Also I would agree with a few other that a 180cm probe is not enough. Plus a good quality probe will last a long time. I tour in the Canadian rockies and interior BC. The majority of the people I tour with have 320cm probe. 240cm bare minimum.
That’s a good deal on the barryvox - thanks! And I am in Calgary, so very convenient. I have just placed my order - now to start looking at probes and shovels!
 
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Mel

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That’s a good deal on the barryvox - thanks! And I am in Calgary, so very convenient. I have just placed my order - now to start looking at probes and shovels!
And wow - they just delivered it to me! Roughly 24 hours from order to delivery with no shipping charge. Thanks again @clewis for the recommendation!
 

robertc3

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For the shovel and probe I would get a 280 or longer aluminum probe and whatever lightweight aluminum shovel fits your teen's grip well. Probes can take a bit of a beating, so the super light carbonfiber may not last long. The shovel shouldn't be too large or she/he won't be able to move a shovel full. The grip has to work with their glove choice. If mitts a T grip won't work.
 

Primoz

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For the shovel and probe I would get a 280 or longer aluminum probe and whatever lightweight aluminum shovel fits your teen's grip well. Probes can take a bit of a beating, so the super light carbonfiber may not last long. The shovel shouldn't be too large or she/he won't be able to move a shovel full. The grip has to work with their glove choice. If mitts a T grip won't work.
Personally I wouldn't worry about "too big" shovel, as avi shovels are relatively small, so if someone is old/big enough to use it in case of emergency (at those times you don't want little kids around playing with their shovels they use for building sand castles on beach), they shouldn't have issues even with biggest avi shovel. As with everything also with shovel you have whole bunch of options depending what you want from it. But no matter what shape or grip you pick, always go with alu shovel never with plastic. I admit there's less and less plastic shovels seen in stores and on market in general, at least compared to few years back, when half of them were plastic, but you really really really don't want plastic shovel in case you will need it. I still always tell that I really hope transceiver, probe and shovel are just useless weight I carry around, and I really hop will never need it except for doing snow tests... well unfortunately I had to use all once, with not good outcome.
But as for probes go, I agree that carbon probes are just not worth. Not so much because they wouldn't last long, but simply because they are way too expensive for that little benefit in weight they provide. They come at at least twice the price of alu probes, and you save 15 or 20g of weight, and on the end, they normally pack slightly bigger then alu probes, as tube diameter is normally few mm bigger on carbon then on alu.
 

Slim

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There was a discussion on probe diameter somewhere year or so ago. Was it here on ski talk?
Anyway, the gist of it was that:
  • thicker (larger diameter) probes are stiffer
  • stiffer probes are better, because in a real rescue, stressed out, you might be ramming it in, not gently handling it.
  • longer probes tend to be larger diameter.
So, if you can find the diameter of the probe, that would be worth considering,

Other than that, most modern probes have decent tips, and the tightening mechanisms seem pretty good too.
Markings vary in ease of readability, so that is worth a look too.


edit: here is that thread https://www.SkiTalk.com/threads/avy-safety-probe-lengths.18458/#post-531725



In that spreadsheet Ortovox lists not only total length, but also collapsed lenght. you can see that the longer probes also have longer collapsed lengths.
 
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Slim

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@Mel ,
For shovel&probe and pack, you might want to think ’chicken and egg’.

Not all shovels and probes fit (well) in all packs. It sounds like you are mostly thinking of lift accessEd stuff? Typically people prefer small packs for that. Small packs really have issues with this, so worth picking pack and choosing shovel/probe to fit or vice versa.

Either get a backpack first, and make sure that it fits your child, then either take that to the store to try and fit shovel and probe, or order online and fit them at home, retuning them if they don’t fit.

Or, get a shovel and probe first, then make sure to try them in a pack when you buy that.

When you are testing how they fit in the pack, make sure you stuff the main compartment of the pack full, including something hard and bulky like a thermos.
In many ski packs the safety gear and other gear squish into the same volume, even when they are in separate compartments.
 
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Cheizz

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For simple lift-access of-piste adventures, I have the Dakine Poacher 14 L backpack (not a current model, but still available in many online shops). My adult-size shovel blad fits fine. And an extra layer, some first aid stuff, drinking bottle, and skins fit too, without problem or becoming bulky.
For me the best of both worlds: a compact, low-profile backpack that still holds all the stuff I need. Just a suggestion.

For larger tours, I use a bigger pack with an airbag system.
 

James

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I got a Black Diamond Evac 7 shovel last season. It’s a D handle, and a good size. Not small, not the biggest. Has a very simple and intuitive switch over to hoe mode. I keep it in the car most of the winter. I wanted a D handle.
Fits in the Mystery Ranch Saddle Peak 25l pack. It’s good advice on the pack- make sure it can fit a decent shovel.

Ortovox has some nice good size shovels. Mammut has nice small ones

Honestly, unless there’s a big need for a very small shovel, get a useful size one. One that could be used say for… building small jumps, shoveling out the car. Getting a tiny shovel means it’ll never get used unless disaster strikes, then it’s frustratingly small. I don’t see teenagers as needing a “child size” avy shovel. Whatever that is. Do they shovel the walk at home with a child size shovel?

I got the BCA Stealth Probe. Because of the markings and the deployment method. No dangling cord to whip you in the face. For the reasons mentioned I rejected the carbon. It’s propensity for catastrophic failure is tolerable for resort ski poles, but back country poles and probes would be bad.

For BC you’d prob want their 330cm, 13 mm diam., or the 300, 20 grams less and 12mm. 270cm minimum. For the East, I may end up getting a 240cm.


Beacon I got my Barryvox S for less than the regular version by ordering from snowcountry.eu in the Netherlands. Don’t know about western Canada, but standard shipping to Eastern US was very quick.

It does have the EU software, not N America, which is what I wanted. If I want to change software, Mammut is in VT, so shouldn’t be a problem.
 

Mel

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Great advice everyone - much appreciated. We have ordered a backpack, and if he finds it comfortable, we’ll start filling it with probe and shovel shopping. Looking at our local ski shop, they carry aluminum probes (looking at the 300 BCA stealth probe) and no plastic shovels, so we should be good shopping there. With how cold it can get here, I wouldn’t trust plastic to have a great lifespan, so wouldn’t buy a plastic shovel anyway. He can check them out at the shop (it’s where we always go for boots, so we will be there anyway in the late fall) and make sure they all fit in his preferred pack.

Right now the plan is only inbounds terrain (delirium dive), not backcountry, so his pack can be small-ish. He’s at the awkward age where he’s taller than me but still only weighs 110lb, so I don’t want a pack that’s too big/heavy now, nor one that is too small in a year or two.
 

James

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This was the vid that swayed me to the Evac 7. Someone here posted it I think. (Though I have to report that there is wobble in the connection. Maybe he got a good one)

Also, I came to realize that the Neanderthals never had a D handle shovel. Look where that got them, frozen in a glacier.

Seriously though, (since we could one day unearth that ancient D handle), I dislike shoveling without the D handle. Realization number 2 was it really doesn’t take that much more room. Or, “If there is room, the D handle will come”

“The purpose of a shovel in back country skiing is to move sn-oh”
A Canadian guide’s almost rant. Worth watching.
 
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Mel

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I hope he was just being funny in the video about the gardening hand trowel, but I can only imagine what they’ve seen people try to bring/use in the backcountry.

I also like the D handle, and with mitts not gloves it makes sense. They also had it locally, so Evac 7 now ordered.
 

James

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I think he’ll be happy with it.
Just so people know, it’s not the only good D handle choice.

For the car I’m probably going to get a BCA B-52. It’s big, and heavy, nearly a kilo, not that pricey at $60. Not so appropriate for a backpack, but a sled or a snowmachine if you need big.

One thing I encountered when looking is a warning about the “Shaxe”, from BCA. This is a shovel that can use it’s shaft for an ice axe. Ortovox also makes an ice axe attachment. Sounds great, 2 tools in one! The Shaxe seems to have originally been designed and sold by K2. BCA has made it with a bent shaft.

You’ll have to decide your self.
The warning comes from the simple reason that if you drop and lose the ice axe, now you’ve lost your shovel too. Digging with a blade and no handle is pretty inefficient.
Also, assembling things in snow, like pulling out from it’s case and putting an axe head on a shaft leads to the possibility of dropping it and losing it.
There’s a cost savings probably. Weight? Maybe. It’s 902gms. You can get a good shovel and light weight axe for less, but prob not that blade size. The Petzl Glacier Literide is 320 gms, 50cm, and has a steel pick and spike.

Not recommended by some, loved by others-
E4637CB3-6C94-425E-890E-A4F68C29104A.png
 
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Primoz

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@James I don't like such ideas, just as I don't like solutions where you carry your shovel and probe attached to backpack on out side of the pack. Reason is exactly what you wrote. You can easily lose it, even when attached properly to backpack. It sounds impossible and I never understood how can so many people loose properly attached ice axes, until last year it happened to me. I didn't lose it, but if friend wouldn't ski to me and fixed it, when one of ice axes was still just barely hanging on backpack, I would be without it by the time we would reach bottom. And it was all properly attached. It still beats me how it's possible, but it is. And if you change now ice axe for shovel, consequences are way bigger in case of emergency. So as far as I'm concerned, shovel and probe are always inside of pack, and they are their own tool, not combined with something that you climb with and might or might not have it when you need.
 

charlier

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Mel - I am not sure where you live, but in the Colorado Rockies, a 280 cm probe is fine. Shovels - most major brands such as Mammut, BCA, Ortovox, Voile, and Black Diamond provide very good shovels. In 2008, Manuel Genswein and Ragnhild Eide presented one of the first real-world study on shovel strength and size and showed that Voile was the only shovel that passed their initial tests.

If UIAA certifications and standards are are important to you, Mammut and BCA shovels are certified by UIAA. Even the minimalist 460-gram Alugator Light model has the UIAA certification. Whatever size you get, make sure that it gets in your pack. A large shovel can get left behind, so any modern metal shovel that you put in your pack is better than a larger/heavier shovel left behind.
 

charlier

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I think he’ll be happy with it.
Just so people know, it’s not the only good D handle choice.

For the car I’m probably going to get a BCA B-52. It’s big, and heavy, nearly a kilo, not that pricey at $60. Not so appropriate for a backpack, but a sled or a snowmachine if you need big.

One thing I encountered when looking is a warning about the “Shaxe”, from BCA. This is a shovel that can use it’s shaft for an ice axe. Ortovox also makes an ice axe attachment. Sounds great, 2 tools in one! The Shaxe seems to have originally been designed and sold by K2. BCA has made it with a bent shaft.

You’ll have to decide your self.
The warning comes from the simple reason that if you drop and lose the ice axe, now you’ve lost your shovel too. Digging with a blade and no handle is pretty inefficient.
Also, assembling things in snow, like pulling out from it’s case and putting an axe head on a shaft leads to the possibility of dropping it and losing it.
There’s a cost savings probably. Weight? Maybe. It’s 902gms. You can get a good shovel and light weight axe for less, but prob not that blade size. The Petzl Glacier Literide is 320 gms, 50cm, and has a steel pick and spike.

Not recommended by some, loved by others-

Its been my experience that multi-use snow shovels are not useful or safe in high-stress environments (e.g., real world avalanche). If anyone in my group has a probe that fits into the handle of the shovel, I gently ask them to remove the probe and keep is separate. Same with a snow saw. Ice axe as a shovel handle - yikes? Imagine dropping you ice axe, a common issue with less experienced climbers, you are left without a snow shovel. Two snow 'safety tools in one' sounds great on paper or in the store, but can be a safe issue in the field.
 

James

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Ice axe as a shovel handle - yikes? Imagine dropping you ice axe, a common issue with less experienced climbers, you are left without a snow shovel. Two snow 'safety tools in one' sounds great on paper or in the store, but can be a safe issue in the field.
What shovels are you carrying?

I think I first read about this issue in Wild Snow. Hadn’t thought about it before. Still, people post “reviews” where they’ve used the thing for years and “love” it. Then there’s the ubiquitous armchair drive by review with no practical experience or thought.
As far as I can see the only savings really is cost. But buying a used ice axe would solve that.

Multi use tools are usually quite poor off paper. A flat screwdriver is multi use, but you know it’s not good when used as a chisel or pry bar. Those $0.50 lid pry/bottle opener tools at the paint store do a better job on paint can lids.

Ironically, Lou Dawson’s son or nephew, Louie, worked on the design with K-2 according to comments on an article about the K-2 version some years ago on Wild Snow.
 

charlier

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What shovels are you carrying?

I think I first read about this issue in Wild Snow. Hadn’t thought about it before. Still, people post “reviews” where they’ve used the thing for years and “love” it. Then there’s the ubiquitous armchair drive by review with no practical experience or thought.
As far as I can see the only savings really is cost. But buying a used ice axe would solve that.

Multi use tools are usually quite poor off paper. A flat screwdriver is multi use, but you know it’s not good when used as a chisel or pry bar. Those $0.50 lid pry/bottle opener tools at the paint store do a better job on paint can lids.

Ironically, Lou Dawson’s son or nephew, Louie, worked on the design with K-2 according to comments on an article about the K-2 version some years ago on Wild Snow.

James - You make some very good points. Similar to ski reviews, backcountry equipment reviews should be taken with a grain of salt. I have a variety of shovels, mostly provided by BCA and Mammut including Mammut Alugator Pro Light and BCA RS shovel (part of the T-handle is meet for repair (banging stuff). My wife has a Mammut Alugator light shovel. Probes - 280 and 320 carbon probe - these probes are a bit more fragile than aluminum probes, although the probes have held up well teaching avi classes.

I am a bit skeptical multi-purchase tools and saving money. Tech boots, binding, and skis are expensive, so why skimp on snow safety equipment or ice tools (ice axe and crampons).
 

Mel

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I won’t even use a spork when camping, and there’s hardly life or death consequences if it doesn’t work as planned. Plus Shaxe has to be one of the worst brand names - just makes me think of a “s$&%^y axe”.
 

sparty

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Whichever shovel you do get, go dig some pits and do some snowpack evaluation as a learning experience—not only about the snowpack, but more about the shovel. Figure out if the way you're carrying it in the pack works for a quick deployment, if it actually fits well into your hands, etc. Also, I'd suggest a careful look at how the pack works with the gear in it and skis strapped to it. I've got a Patagonia bag that I really liked except that the sharpish edge of the shovel (where it met the handle, not the actual blade) got pushed against the fabric by the skis on the pack, resulting in multiple small holes.

I think I've got a BCA shovel in my pack, but it might be a BD; either way, the modern stuff I've seen from most major names doesn't seems reasonable to use. I've (thankfully) never used it to dig through an avalanche, though, only for snow pits and stuck vehicles. Actually, digging a truck out of a snowbank is probably a pretty decent test, as you're likely to get to deal with compacted snow.
 

robertc3

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I wouldn't use an ice axe shovel in an avalanche situation where the shovel is likely the critical use, but I have one that I use for summer mountaineering where the ice axe is the primary tool and the shovel is really just for leveling out a tent platform or maybe a spot to sit and have lunch. It turns out my regular mountaineering axe fits perfectly into the blade of my backup snow shovel, so I just pack the blade for summer climbing. It works pretty slick and saves a bit of weight. Almost no chance I am dropping the ice axe (it is on a leash all the time and in 20+ years of climbing it has never happened nor have I seen it happen) and if I lost the blade I would be ok, though losing the lone blade is no more likely than losing a full shovel.
 

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