Tip diversion causes.

[Steve]

Tip diversion (the opposite of a wedge) is seen often in both great skiers and racers, and in mere mortals (like me.)

I don't believe it is always wrong, but certainly can be an issue in one's skiing that needs addressing.

I've heard it said that it is often caused by too much weight on the inside ski.

Thoughts, ideas from some of the high level experts here would be very appreciated.

 

[Erik Timmerman]

I call is Scissors. In us mortals I’d say it usually is caused by being too far inside.

 

[HardDaysNight]

Agree the cause is usually too much weight on the inside ski. This makes it difficult to tip that ski which therefore tends to rotate instead. In my experience it’s by far the most common, systemic error afflicting high level skiers. For example most masters racers would benefit from moving more decisively, completely and earlier onto the new outside ski. (And not just the masters guys either.)

 

[Johnny V.]

Easy to spot from behind as the inside ski is at an angle to the outside ski. I should probably have someone watch me and see how much I do it also.

 

[James]

Did it not used to be a recognized level in Psia? Called something like divergent dynamic parallel. 1980’s?

Seems to me it could also be your on the outside ski, quite countered, and you make a move inside- essentially steering the inside leg, often with inside foot drifting forward.

Hirscher diverging at Vail, 2015

Photo Ron LeMaster

 

[Steve]

There have been times that I felt it was rushing the turn with a pivot, a "rotary pushoff". But since I'm now much more on the outside ski early that pivot has more effect on the inside ski.

A javelin turn exercise, or as Gellie explains some internal rotation torque on the inside ski would help this.

 

[James]

There have been times that I felt it was rushing the turn with a pivot, a "rotary pushoff". But since I'm now much more on the outside ski early that pivot has more effect on the inside ski.

A javelin turn exercise, or as Gellie explains some internal rotation torque on the inside ski would help this.

Sounds good.
You could try skiing slowly on pretty flat terrain and always being parallel. Really concentrate on the old outside foot release, new inside foot tipping.
It makes skiing slowly interesting.

The other big issue is where is your com when you want to transition? If it’s still too far inside you’ll have to do something like abstem. Ski into neutral.

 

[Noodler]

There have been times that I felt it was rushing the turn with a pivot, a "rotary pushoff". But since I'm now much more on the outside ski early that pivot has more effect on the inside ski.

A javelin turn exercise, or as Gellie explains some internal rotation torque on the inside ski would help this.

Javelin drills are a great idea. How are your javelins? Note that there are nuances to how to do the javelin drill properly and what to emphasize to get the most out of it.

 

[Erik Timmerman]

Did it not used to be a recognized level in Psia? Called something like divergent dynamic parallel. 1980’s?

That's before my time, but I think that's a whole different animal. I take it to be this diverging skate-like movement seen here.

 

[mdf]

If you pull back the inside foot it helps.

 

[James]

That's before my time, but I think that's a whole different animal. I take it to be this diverging skate-like movement seen here.

Great clips!
I think it’s more the Armstrong gs one.
Hansi! He definitely took a divergent step later.

Here’s Stenmark, bib 3, 1981 gs
So smooth.
(Forerunner had one leg!)
At 9:00-

 

[Steve]

I ski slowly a lot, something Borntoski told me many years ago on epicski.

Regarding Javelin turns, I have done them from time to time, but the way I approach it is to think about creating some counter-torque in my inside leg. By that I mean; in the middle of a right legged turn (turn to the left) I apply some rotational torque to my left leg inward. It's the same basic movement as a javelin turn but without lifting the ski, or even rotating it at all. Just enough torque to a: keep it from diverting and b: give the right leg something to work against as it is turning to the left.

Again this is a Gellie thing, and I like it a lot.

 

[Erik Timmerman]

I ski slowly a lot, something Borntoski told me many years ago on epicski.

Regarding Javelin turns, I have done them from time to time, but the way I approach it is to think about creating some counter-torque in my inside leg. By that I mean; in the middle of a right legged turn (turn to the left) I apply some rotational torque to my left leg inward. It's the same basic movement as a javelin turn but without lifting the ski, or even rotating it at all. Just enough torque to a: keep it from diverting and b: give the right leg something to work against as it is turning to the left.

Again this is a Gellie thing, and I like it a lot.

Maybe I misunderstand, but that's not how I'd want to apply javelin to one's skiing. IMHO the point of javelin is to feel how the outside leg turns relative to a stable pelvis. In the javelin I'd want to pick up the inside ski at the fall line and then steer the outside ski under it. This keeps the hips facing downhill and the inside ski hanging there with the hips. You can also try it as a one footed javelin hockey stop.

 

[James]

I ski slowly a lot, something Borntoski told me many years ago on epicski

Doing what focus? What’s the goal?

 

[Steve]

Very busy today, will post later.

This thread was really not about me, it was about Tip Divergence in general, but happy to make it both.

 

[Henry]

"I've heard it said that it is often caused by too much weight on the inside ski."

That extra weight on the inside ski is making it grip more. Because it's inside with the added grip it wants to turn a tighter radius than the light outside ski. The way I know that I'm not correctly balancing over the outside ski is when they diverge. I immediately know what I'm doing wrong, too heavy on the inside, and properly lightening the inside and balancing over the outside ski fixes it.

 

[Erik Timmerman]

Another video of '80's Diverging Parallel


Thanks to @Josh Matta for the suggestion of this video.

 

[Noodler]

Another video of '80's Diverging Parallel


Thanks to @Josh Matta for the suggestion of this video.

I really don't think this is the same thing at all. What we're seeing with Tomba (and other racers of the straight ski era) is the racing technique of stepping across to immediately change the line and effectively overcome the lack of ski sidecut to be able to make the gate. I used this same exact technique while racing in high school.

Diverging these days on shaped skis is a turn fault. In my skiing, it can be due to being lazy with the inside ski or insufficient counterbalancing over the stance ski.

 

[Erik Timmerman]

I really don't think this is the same thing at all. What we're seeing with Tomba (and other racers of the straight ski era) is the racing technique of stepping across to immediately change the line and effectively overcome the lack of ski sidecut to be able to make the gate. I used this same exact technique while racing in high school.

Diverging these days on shaped skis is a turn fault. In my skiing, it can be due to being lazy with the inside ski or insufficient counterbalancing over the stance ski.

You are right. That's what I said several posts above. The old PSIA stepping stone of "Diverging Parallel" is not what the OP was asking about, it is what is shown in these videos. I'm glad that you agree.

 

[François Pugh]

I can't believe that nobody mentioned alignment yet.