Tip Lead

[cantunamunch]

LiquidFeet thanks for the explanation. Note: this inside ski pull-back does not involve moving the hip above it back. It's a foot/ski pull-back only.

Only it can't be a pure pull back - there has to be a leg shortening or pull of the knee up to the chest, otherwise the front of the inside ski gets loaded.

 

[slowrider]

Only it can't be a pure pull back - there has to be a leg shortening or pull of the knee up to the chest, otherwise the front of the inside ski gets loaded.

LiquidFeet thanks for the explanation. Note: this inside ski pull-back does not involve moving the hip above it back. It's a foot/ski pull-back only.
This is the start of having a dynamic inside ski in a carved turn. The Phantom foot.

 

[LiquidFeet]

Only it can't be a pure pull back - there has to be a leg shortening or pull of the knee up to the chest, otherwise the front of the inside ski gets loaded.

Yes, the inside leg must be bent do do the pull-back. But with bent leg this pull-back still loads the front of the inside ski.
Nothing wrong with loading the font of the inside ski. It's one of the benefits. Dontchathink?
If the inside ski is to contribute to the turn, loading and bending the front of it is the best bet. It adds to the effect of the bend in the heavily loaded outside ski.

In fact, when making the slowest of turns on the flattest of pitches, one can create a turn simply by pulling back that new inside ski. Pull that ski back by bending the leg from the knee down. The foot goes back but the hip does not. The pull-back loads the tip to increase its grip, and lightens the tail. As the inside tail loses some of its load it swishes around the gripping tip. It's like putting an oar straight down in the water to the side of a canoe. A turn happens because there's a differential between front grip and back grip. Do nothing with the new outside ski.

For instance, pull back left ski to turn left when getting off the lift. Pull back right ski to go right off the lift. Both skis stay pretty flat and skid their way along, with the tip of the new inside ski gripping more than its tail. A turn happens, and the friction keeps the travel speed down.

If every skier knew this then far fewer tangle-ups would happen when unloading the lifts. And more certification candidates would be able to make a pure parallel turn on beginner terrain at a nice slow beginner-friendly speed.

 

[Rod9301]

Trying to eliminate tip lead in your skiing can cause other problems. It makes pivot slips really difficult to do (ie what @LiquidFeet mentioned about separation).

Perfect tip lead is like the perfect shrubbery... not too big, not too small, and a little to the left.

You can't eliminate the tip lead, because of the physics involved, the steeper the slope, the more tip lead.

However, pulling the ski back forcefully with your hamstrings will get you centered at the beginning of the next turn. Which is a big deal in a positive way.

In my case, even in jump turns in very steep terrain, if i don't concentrate on pulling the inside ski back(in the air for jump turns), it takes a few feet to recenter and to be able to start the next turn. If i don't pull back, I'm in the back seat and starting the next turn is really awkward and forced, instead of feeling balanced and in control.

 

[cantunamunch]

Nothing wrong with loading the font of the inside ski. It's one of the benefits. Dontchathink?

EDIT: LF's post made this section redundant.

I can see any number of pitfalls, including divergence from stance/muscle conditioning issues, divergence from ski splay/tip profile issues, weirdness from the ski bending between binding and tip only. Including lateral balance errors from the sudden presence of ground reaction force inboard of the dominant edge. Far safer to pull the knee up to the chest.

If our goal is to engage the LTE as a prelude to turn release - then the whole eliminating tip lead thing should be in that context, no?

 

[cantunamunch]

If the inside ski is to contribute to the turn, loading and bending the front of it is the best bet. It adds to the effect of the bend in the heavily loaded outside ski.

Also adds to braking

In fact, when making the slowest of turns on the flattest of pitches, one can create a turn simply by pulling back that new inside ski. Pull that ski back by bending the leg from the knee down. The foot goes back but the hip does not. The pull-back loads the tip to increase its grip, and lightens the tail.

With you so far except no way am I bending a 130++ boot from the knee down without having weight on the ski already.

It's like putting an oar straight down in the water to the side of a canoe.

Yes. And in my kayak classes that is taught as a NOT because the differential is likely to make you a member of the swimming public. In fact several hours are spent breaking you of the habit by teaching you how to mindfully present paddle to water without tipping over.

And more certification candidates would be able to make a pure parallel turn on beginner terrain at a nice slow beginner-friendly speed.

If we start the exercise with load on the inner ski, I'm with you entirely. Hell, I use the method myself on XC skis.

Not sure I have a picture of how it would work starting from a strongly dominant outside edge in a park'n'ride turn.

 

[LiquidFeet]

EDIT: LF's post made this section redundant.

I can see any number of pitfalls, including divergence from stance/muscle conditioning issues, divergence from ski splay/tip profile issues, weirdness from the ski bending between binding and tip only. Including lateral balance errors from the sudden presence of ground reaction force inboard of the dominant edge. Far safer to pull the knee up to the chest.

If our goal is to engage the LTE as a prelude to turn release - then the whole eliminating tip lead thing should be in that context, no?

Ah, I see the disconnect in what you are thinking and what I am thinking. The inside ski pull-back, as I use it, is for skidded turns. Not arc-to-arc carved turns. I've never doen the pull-back when strongly shortening the inside leg.

But I do hold it back, ish, in those turns - so it doesn't shift forward. My goal when carving is to keep equal grip from shovel to tail, so the tail stays in the groove.

I wonder if other people use the pull-back with carved turns?

 

[LiquidFeet]

Your comments in blue. Mine in black.

Also adds to braking
Yes, because the two skis are skidding (I use this in skidded turns) and it adds a bit of friction when the tail swishes outward.

With you so far except no way am I bending a 130++ boot from the knee down without having weight on the ski already.
Of course. I think you are talking about fast dynamic turns that are carved. I'm not talking about that type of turn. No boot flex is required for the tip to grip more than the tail.

Yes. And in my kayak classes that is taught as a NOT because the differential is likely to make you a member of the swimming public. In fact several hours are spent breaking you of the habit by teaching you how to mindfully present paddle to water without tipping over.
Well, that's kayaking and this is skiing. That's a kayak vs an oar, and this is one ski vs another. This move has never tipped me over, nor my students.

If we start the exercise with load on the inner ski, I'm with you entirely. Hell, I use the method myself on XC skis.
Simply pulling the new inside ski back loads it. Because it erases some load from the tail. The load doesn't come from the skier standing on that ski.

Not sure I have a picture of how it would work starting from a strongly dominant outside edge in a park'n'ride turn.
Right. I'm not talking about turns laying pencil-thin lines in the snow.

 

[Chris V.]

For instance, pull back left ski to turn left when getting off the lift. Pull back right ski to go right off the lift. Both skis stay pretty flat and skid their way along, with the tip of the new inside ski gripping more than its tail. A turn happens, and the friction keeps the travel speed down.

If every skier knew this then far fewer tangle-ups would happen when unloading the lifts.

You can tell a lot about how good a skier is just by watching the skier unload and navigate the flats at the top of the lift. Good skiers get around elegantly and effortlessly with just small movements of the feet. Those using gross motor movements getting off the lift will use them everywhere.

 

[Chris V.]

I wonder if other people use the pull-back with carved turns?

Yes.

 

[LiquidFeet]

Yes.

Do you use it to keep the inside ski engaged? Or to shorten the turn, which requires a more substantial pull-back? I'm talking about arc-to-arc carved turns here.

Do you use it with high edge angles (hip to snow), or with turns having less dramatic edge angles?
Is the pull-back that you use with your carved turns strong enough to loosen your outside ski's position in its groove?

 

[mister moose]

What's all this I hear about tip lead? Don't we have enough trouble getting our skis to turn, now we have to put lead in? Who's crazy idea is it to make the tips heavier? We'll all be worn out after 20 turns, and I don't have to tell you I'm no spring chicken! Next thing you know they'll be putting lead in the tails too, and then in the boots. Well I don't want to be known as Emily Leadtilla, No-sir-ee. It's time to get the lead out, that's what I say!!!

 

[mdf]

never mind....

 

[Chris V.]

That's tip bleed, Emily.

 

[Chris V.]

Do you use it to keep the inside ski engaged? Or to shorten the turn, which requires a more substantial pull-back? I'm talking about arc-to-arc carved turns here.

Do you use it with high edge angles (hip to snow), or with turns having less dramatic edge angles?
Is the pull-back that you use with your carved turns strong enough to loosen your outside ski's position in its groove?

I'd say strong pull-back combined with strong tipping to tighten the turn radius. Sure, it can help keep the inside ski engaged, even though not bearing a lot of weight. But I think you've already identified the biggest benefit--putting the inside ski in a place where it's easier to move forward onto it at the transition into the new turn. Thus facilitating a fore-aft movement pattern featuring getting forward very early in the new turn, as highlighted in other recent threads. At least that's what I've been taught.

If I'm carving, I don't want to "loosen the outside ski from its groove." Pull-back to reduce tip lead is not the same as pull-back to move forward on the outside ski in the belly of the turn. The latter is going to result in a brushed turn.

I still have a lot of work to do on the hip to the snow thing, LOL. As I understand it, it's largely about releasing the COM early, progressively, and strongly enough to create big inclination early in the new turn. While having some speed. All of which can be scary.

 

[slowrider]

I'd say strong pull-back combined with strong tipping to tighten the turn radius. Sure, it can help keep the inside ski engaged, even though not bearing a lot of weight. But I think you've already identified the biggest benefit--putting the inside ski in a place where it's easier to move forward onto it at the transition into the new turn. Thus facilitating a fore-aft movement pattern featuring getting forward very early in the new turn, as highlighted in other recent threads. At least that's what I've been taught.

If I'm carving, I don't want to "loosen the outside ski from its groove." Pull-back to reduce tip lead is not the same as pull-back to move forward on the outside ski in the belly of the turn. The latter is going to result in a brushed turn.

I still have a lot of work to do on the hip to the snow thing, LOL. As I understand it, it's largely about releasing the COM early, progressively, and strongly enough to create big inclination early in the new turn. While having some speed. All of which can be scary.

Would you think that a blended movement of pull back,tipping & soften the inside leg is beneficial in the carved rurn.

 

[Chris V.]

Would you think that a blended movement of pull back,tipping & soften the inside leg is beneficial in the carved rurn.

You bet. Advice I've received is to strongly retract the inside leg to facilitate higher angles. If one wants to get dynamic.

 

[Rod9301]

You didn't ask me, but the answer is yes, except it's not just softening the inside leg, but actively shortening it, ie moving the knee towards you chest, or more accurately the inside of your chest because of angulation

Would you think that a blended movement of pull back,tipping & soften the inside leg is beneficial in the carved rurn.

 

[markojp]

If I keep my inside foot under me, I can use the pressure to elevate my pelvis. It also engages the inside edge of the inside ski so it tracks commensurately with the outside ski. Show me excessive tip lead, and I'll show you diverging skis and CoM back and in. I don't 'pull back' the inside foot strongly, but I'm aware of its placement.

LF, if you look at pictures of multiple WC skiers, you'll notice the heel of the inside foot at the knee of the outside leg. Sometimes working with people, I might use 'keeping your feet in the box', or 'contain the inside foot' rather than 'pull back'. Semantics maybe, but words matter.... I guess.

 

[slow-line-fast]

You can tell a lot about how good a skier is just by watching the skier unload and navigate the flats at the top of the lift. Good skiers get around elegantly and effortlessly with just small movements of the feet. Those using gross motor movements getting off the lift will use them everywhere.

Spilling coaches/instructors' secrets I see