Tipping the foot inside the boot first - why?

razie

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But all those WC'ers we're never trying to brush turns when they were kids at their local clubs. The only goal was to get from start to finish as fast as possible. There was only one way to get their, and even from a young age they knew what skill they had to master to get the outcome to win... carved turns.
This.

Warren Witherrel 101 :beercheer:
 
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JESinstr

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If you say "short radius turns," I'll ask, "How short?" IMHO, it's best to learn brushed turns first, then progress to perfecting carved turns. The similarities between excellent brushed and carved turns much outweigh the differences. Then get good at longish carved turns, and start tightening them up more and more. Actually carving turns of the radius found in a WC slalom course, on a pitch found in a WC slalom course, requires highly refined movements. We all have our limits. Most of us won't get there, but with practice we can get closer and closer.
Can anyone provide a detailed definition of an "excellent" brushed turn? By "brushed" I assume the ski is skidding. We have a definition for when a ski is carving, and we have a definition of when a ski is sliding. At what point along that continuum is the Excellent Brushed turn located?

And if that point is located, and we understand that (other than dynamic balance) a skier needs no skills to slide straight but requires a combination of edging and pressure skills (throw in Rotary for Short Radius) to get the ski to carve, then to which end should we focus our teaching efforts?

IMO the trouble with traditional teaching progression dogma is that we indeed keep getting closer and closer but somehow, many never reach the destination.
 

mdf

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Can anyone provide a detailed definition of an "excellent" brushed turn?
The primary criteria are that the amount of slippage is under the skiers control and is turned on and off smoothly rather than abruptly. (Too much grip means its a carve instead. Too little means its not a turn. Too abruptly means its a stivot instead.) Secondary criterion is that all parts of the ski slip sideways about the same amount (otherwise its a heel push).

The main skills that need to be learned are how to feel how much grip the edges have and how to adjust the edge angles a small amount to change it (coupled to that feel of what is happening).

The brushed turn is very much a real thing.
 
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TS
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The primary criteria are that the amount of slippage is under the skiers control and is turned on and off smoothly rather than abruptly. (Too much grip means its a carve instead. Too little means its not a turn. Too abruptly means its a stivot instead.) Secondary criterion is that all parts of the ski slip sideways about the same amount (otherwise its a heel push).

The main skills that need to be learned are how to feel how much grip the edges have and how to adjust the edge angles a small amount to change it (coupled to that feel of what is happening).

The brushed turn is very much a real thing.
Very clear delineations between all the variations possible. I've never seen this written out in detail before.
 
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LiquidFeet

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The primary criteria are that the amount of slippage is under the skiers control and is turned on and off smoothly rather than abruptly. (Too much grip means its a carve instead. Too little means its not a turn. Too abruptly means its a stivot instead.) Secondary criterion is that all parts of the ski slip sideways about the same amount (otherwise its a heel push).

The main skills that need to be learned are how to feel how much grip the edges have and how to adjust the edge angles a small amount to change it (coupled to that feel of what is happening).

The brushed turn is very much a real thing.
I'd like to add one thing to the main skills needed for a brushed carve.
One needs to be able to feel and adjust at will the relative positions in all planes of the CoM to the BoS.
 

KingGrump

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I'd like to add one thing to the main skills needed for a brushed carve.
One needs to be able to feel and adjust at will the relative positions in all planes of the CoM to the BoS.

Unlike many here with the conviction of all carving all the time. Oh yeah, and going mach schnell all day, everyday. I am constantly in the gray zone. Perhaps I should spend more time on groomers. :ogcool:
 

JESinstr

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The primary criteria are that the amount of slippage is under the skiers control and is turned on and off smoothly rather than abruptly. (Too much grip means its a carve instead. Too little means its not a turn. Too abruptly means its a stivot instead.) Secondary criterion is that all parts of the ski slip sideways about the same amount (otherwise its a heel push).

The main skills that need to be learned are how to feel how much grip the edges have and how to adjust the edge angles a small amount to change it (coupled to that feel of what is happening).

The brushed turn is very much a real thing.
So if the primary objective is for a skier to be able to control the amount of slippage in a smooth and non-abrupt way, who would have the best chance for success? A skier that has been taught the principals of the carving process (edging and pressure) right from the get-go or a student that has been taught to first twist their skis.

Unlike many here with the conviction of all carving all the time. Oh yeah, and going mach schnell all day, everyday. I am constantly in the gray zone. Perhaps I should spend more time on groomers. :ogcool:

It's not about carving all the time, it's about having the skill level to do what you want to do. The question is how much control you have of the gray zone.

The mindset that we don't teach the basic fundamentals of the carving process (edging, pressure let the ski do the work) to beginners, is why the gray zone is a precarious place for many.
 

Tony S

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The primary criteria are that the amount of slippage is under the skiers control and is turned on and off smoothly rather than abruptly. (Too much grip means its a carve instead. Too little means its not a turn. Too abruptly means its a stivot instead.) Secondary criterion is that all parts of the ski slip sideways about the same amount (otherwise its a heel push).

The main skills that need to be learned are how to feel how much grip the edges have and how to adjust the edge angles a small amount to change it (coupled to that feel of what is happening).

The brushed turn is very much a real thing.
Good job, @mdf
 

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It's not about carving all the time,

Could've fool me from all the carve-holics posts I have seen here and Epic over the years.

The question is how much control you have of the gray zone.

I am doing OK with the gray zone. I hang out at Taos all season. Haven't died yet.

The mindset that we don't teach the basic fundamentals of the carving process (edging, pressure let the ski do the work) to beginners, is why the gray zone is a precarious place for many.

Being in the gray zone intentionally rather than by accident and/or ignorance are two different things.

@mdf about to entering the gray zone in Hunziker Dog Leg at TSV.
Photo credit: Tony S.
1669138793743.jpeg
 

mdf

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[..how to get there...] A skier that has been taught the principals of the carving process (edging and pressure) right from the get-go or a student that has been taught to first twist their skis.
You'd think starting from a pure carve would be the best approach, but people can get stuck anywhere. Some people who started with carving have trouble learning bumps because they can't modulate their edges.

On balance, though, starting from too much edge is probably a beter bet than starting from too little.
 

markojp

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Unlike many here with the conviction of all carving all the time. Oh yeah, and going mach schnell all day, everyday. I am constantly in the gray zone. Perhaps I should spend more time on groomers. :ogcool:

Whoa there cemosabe, you know I'm all about the versatility thing... big toolbox, pick your results, that sort of thing.

:roflmao:
 

mister moose

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Can anyone provide a detailed definition of an "excellent" brushed turn? By "brushed" I assume the ski is skidding. We have a definition for when a ski is carving, and we have a definition of when a ski is sliding. At what point along that continuum is the Excellent Brushed turn located?

Lots of other criteria, but what about track width? You could aim for 12 inch wide tracks, for example.

Borrowing markojp's avitar, imagine where his foot is a half second later. Anywhere on the yellow line, (or above it since he's turning), has to be a carve. Any slippage and you drop below the yellow line into the brush zone, your foot and your tail did not follow the tip.
Turn zone.jpg
.

The more you allow the edge to slip, which also means the angle off the line of the direction the ski is pointing, the further you are along the skid scale.
 

François Pugh

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Actually, you can turn around 180 degrees and end up going uphill (or a 360 circle) without doing a clean pure arc-2-arc turn.

A very good reason not to teach beginners to make clean pure arc-2-arc turns right off the bat, is nobody wants out-of control beginners, or intermediate skiers for that matter, skiing around on our busy ski runs at speeds over 50 mph.

There is only so much speed reduction you can get carving clean turns, even clean SL turns.

There also seems to be little understanding of what is possible with pure carved turns in terms of varying the radius of said turns. A lot of folk who progressed through the standard learning pattern falsely believe that once you are in a carve, you are locked into a given radius turn that can't be varied on the fly. They also believe that they are carving pure arc-2-arc turns when they are not. It seems that these people are also often the ones who are big on it's a progression and a matter of degree.

Its not carving all the time; it's carving whenever you can and you want to and it's save to do so. There are times when you can, but it would be reckless, so you shouldn't.

The problem with some people who somehow got into carving and became a carvaholic without going through the short-radius turn schooling, is that they don't really know how to make a good short radius turn. That's why they can't ski bumps. They can learn though.
 

Chris V.

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The primary criteria are that the amount of slippage is under the skiers control and is turned on and off smoothly rather than abruptly. ...The main skills that need to be learned are how to feel how much grip the edges have and how to adjust the edge angles a small amount to change it (coupled to that feel of what is happening).
Well put! Thank you for that.
So if the primary objective is for a skier to be able to control the amount of slippage in a smooth and non-abrupt way, who would have the best chance for success? A skier that has been taught the principals of the carving process (edging and pressure) right from the get-go or a student that has been taught to first twist their skis.
Just my view, but...I would never advocate teaching beginners to twist their skis. And actually, it's a very good plan to get beginners carving in the most beginner-friendly settings the very first day. It's a matter of having the right terrain You can have beginners do J turns on the gentlest slopes as one of the first exercises. Yes, get them to experience grip and tails following tips, and to discover what they need to do to accomplish this. Then, as soon as students can negotiate a very gentle slope without stopping, teach railroad track turns. On appropriate terrain, they're well within reach of first or second day students--but rarely taught at that stage!

But once students understand the carve, they need to learn what it takes to get out of the carve in a controlled, productive way. Beginners are not going to be successful trying to link edge-locked carves as soon as they get onto a slightly steeper pitch.
It's not about carving all the time, it's about having the skill level to do what you want to do. ...The mindset that we don't teach the basic fundamentals of the carving process (edging, pressure let the ski do the work) to beginners, is why the gray zone is a precarious place for many.
Mostly, I think we're on the same page.
You'd think starting from a pure carve would be the best approach, but people can get stuck anywhere. Some people who started with carving have trouble learning bumps because they can't modulate their edges.

On balance, though, starting from too much edge is probably a beter bet than starting from too little.
It's very common that I'll see skiers who have some good skills, and get around the mountain very well, but "can't modulate their edges," and hence can't shorten their turn radius past a certain point, instead having to rely on that twisting and making Z-shaped turns.
Its not carving all the time; it's carving whenever you can and you want to and it's sa[f]e to do so. There are times when you can, but it would be reckless, so you shouldn't.

The problem with some people who somehow got into carving and became a carvaholic without going through the short-radius turn schooling, is that they don't really know how to make a good short radius turn. That's why they can't ski bumps. They can learn though.
Agreed.

Relevant to all of this is a recent Tom Gellie lecture:


Tom gets heavily into the fore-aft movements, and what's needed to create a steering angle at the start of a turn, to create a slipped or brushed turn, and to shorten the radius without edge-locked carving. He touches on the point that even in a brushed turn, we want to create grip at the end of the turn, to set up the transition into the next turn. He makes an interesting point that was new to me, that by getting aft at the end of a turn we can get the tips to slip while the tails grip, or create what one might call a "reverse steering angle" that starts the redirection of the skis into the next turn.
 

James

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Just my view, but...I would never advocate teaching beginners to twist their skis. And actually, it's a very good plan to get beginners carving in the most beginner-friendly settings the very first day. It's a matter of having the right terrain You can have beginners do J turns on the gentlest slopes as one of the first exercises. Yes, get them to experience grip and tails following tips, and to discover what they need to do to accomplish this. Then, as soon as students can negotiate a very gentle slope without stopping, teach railroad track turns. On appropriate terrain, they're well within reach of first or second day students--but rarely taught at that stage!
Where is this unicorn?
 

Average Joe

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But all those WC'ers we're never trying to brush turns when they were kids at their local clubs. The only goal was to get from start to finish as fast as possible. There was only one way to get their, and even from a young age they knew what skill they had to master to get the outcome to win... carved turns.
I find it much easier to coach "brushing", (or is it steering?) to someone who can carve, than to coach carving to someone that has first practiced a rotational movement.
 

Erik Timmerman

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Just my view, but...I would never advocate teaching beginners to twist their skis. And actually, it's a very good plan to get beginners carving in the most beginner-friendly settings the very first day. It's a matter of having the right terrain You can have beginners do J turns on the gentlest slopes as one of the first exercises. Yes, get them to experience grip and tails following tips, and to discover what they need to do to accomplish this. Then, as soon as students can negotiate a very gentle slope without stopping, teach railroad track turns. On appropriate terrain, they're well within reach of first or second day students--but rarely taught at that stage!
In reply to @James I think you can get the skier to "experience grip and tails following tips" in the first wedge turns, but yeah, we'd need to find the unicorn to be able to do much railroad tracking from there.
 
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