Tipping the foot inside the boot first - why?

Atomicman

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But why reinvent the wheel?

This is the purpose of instruction, so everybody doesn't have to figure out out by themselves.
Or going to school for that matter
Skiing is all about self discovery. Your instructor can tell you and show you what to do, which is great and valuable, but can't do it for you.
 

breck

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Yeah but the reason that works to angulate and counter your body is what's happing in the stance foot. The free foot in your scenario is displacing your COM so you fall in that direction. Your stance foot then pronates, your planter fascia tensions*, your stance foot everts, stance tibia rotates medially inward, your stance femur rotates laterally and hip opens to the outside. ( assumes a slightly bent knee and closed ankle - athletic stance )

Perform your same floor experiment, but this time cross the free leg in front of the stance leg so that your two knees are lined up one in front of the other. This will keep your COM midline.

Don't get me wrong. I love focusing in the inside foot too. But I think it helps to understand what's happing biomechanically.

ETA:
* The tensioning of the planter fascia is key to question of the foot pronating in the boot helping in skiing ( normal pronation as in gate cycle, not over pronation as in foot malady). All Fascia trains begin or terminate at the foot. I like to say begin, because our feet are sensory and control devices. The Superficial Back Line, the Superficial Front Line, the Deep Front Line, and the Lateral Line all begin at the foot. Proprioception in the foot and our fascia system control our muscular skeletal integrity and allow our bodies to prepare for and take on the the stress and tension loads during activities such as skiing.
There's way more to it than this obviously, but I have to run so... anyway food for thought.
Wha? It works, I did the cross thing and Scruffy is right.

All bow down to Scruffy...honestly, I am blown away at how well that informative input worked.
 

breck

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All caught up now. You folks go all over the place on a good thread eh?

Some comments

Tipping the inside foot doesn’t put the outside ski on more edge angle per se. You have to shorten the inside leg. At relatively low edge angles, tipping the inside foot usually shortens the inside leg.
This was vital to my learning of the concept, the legs can shorten/extend as needed, just no angling of the edge. Think shock absorber that just goes up/down.
The tipping over of the outside ski just naturally follows the tipping over of the inside ski. The effect is so strong that if anything, it may be necessary to consciously restrain the tipping of the outside ski a bit, if for instance my goal is to create a brushed turn rather than locking the edge of the outside ski.
Indeed.

2. To start to transition, needs to unbalance himself against centripetal force so centrifugal force wins and pulls him across the skis and into the new turn.
3. Says there's a few different ways to do this - he says he does it by pressing on the short inside leg to raise the CoM to start the transition.
I do this in tele, much easier than with fixed hell (sic) gear even with inside ski pull back.

The feel is a bit of a kick on the inside ski from an edge increase, remember it is behind/inside my COM, that maybe helps pop the turn around. It is like my inside hip cranks around and helps keep the skis separated.

this focus is " ski your uphill ski " ... that is our verbal reminder to refocus on this movement.
Uphill ski == brains, downhill ski == brawn. Both are necessary.

That's exactly what you need gto do in high g turns. You're balancing a load greater thaan your body weight on an a narrow edge. That requires subtle fine adjustments, not gross body movements. At the gym when I have my body weight on a bar on my shoulders I can easily articulate my feet enough to move the center of press left or right or forward or back on one or both feet. The reason that is possible is because the path is at a right angle to the movement I need to make with my foot. It's the same inside a ski boot.
That is just great to ponder on. I was skiiing Sunday and found that I could vary my angles in the deepest part/highest G part of my turn just fine and the weight analogy is exactly right.
There is only so much speed reduction you can get carving clean turns, even clean SL turns.
This bugs me because I constantly have to manage speed on SL skis with skiddy turns even as I pass the fall line at 90 degrees before an edge change. I'd like to ponder going uphill a bit, I'll try once the wider trails open.
Just my view, but...I would never advocate teaching beginners to twist their skis. And actually, it's a very good plan to get beginners carving in the most beginner-friendly settings the very first day. It's a matter of having the right terrain You can have beginners do J turns on the gentlest slopes as one of the first exercises. Yes, get them to experience grip and tails following tips, and to discover what they need to do to accomplish this. Then, as soon as students can negotiate a very gentle slope without stopping, teach railroad track turns. On appropriate terrain, they're well within reach of first or second day students--but rarely taught at that stage!
Someone called you a unicorn for having a rare but presumably valuable concept. Does this actually work??? I don't see why not but I am not an instructor.

Railroad tracks on day 2, why the heck not?
 

whumber

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When I took my LII skiing exam success depended on the skier lengthening the new outside ski to lift the CoM up and over the skis. This has been the major recognizable difference between PMTS and all other teaching systems, and HH has made a very big deal of it when criticizing them. PSIA has made the shift as well, but PSIA teaching has not been as insistent on a single way to initiate turns as HH has, at least not while I've been instructing.
There's definitely a lack of clear direction here, at least among certain PSIA-E examiners. When I did my L3 teaching exam I worked on this as a focus with my group as half the group, in which I was the only one who had actually passed the L3 ski exam at that point, had massive extension moves at initiation. During our private debrief right after my segment there was an unusually lively discussion about whether focusing on softening the new inside leg vs actively extended the new outside leg was more correct with each examiner taking a dfferent side; it didn't last too long but the ETS person who was with them told me later that there was a more extended conversation in private during the scoring process. In any case they liked my teaching style enough that it didn't matter, but certainly the first time I've encountered a "public" disagreement like that in an exam. My experience in general though is that most ed staff are definitely more on the side of softening the new inside leg rather than actively extended the new outside; at least up until you get to the point where you see the overdamped suspension effect where the legs never fully extend :).
 
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There's definitely a lack of clear direction here, at least among certain PSIA-E examiners. When I did my L3 teaching exam I worked on this as a focus with my group as half the group, in which I was the only one who had actually passed the L3 ski exam at that point, had massive extension moves at initiation. During our private debrief right after my segment there was an unusually lively discussion about whether focusing on softening the new inside leg vs actively extended the new outside leg was more correct with each examiner taking a dfferent side; it didn't last too long but the ETS person who was with them told me later that there was a more extended conversation in private during the scoring process. In any case they liked my teaching style enough that it didn't matter, but certainly the first time I've encountered a "public" disagreement like that in an exam. My experience in general though is that most ed staff are definitely more on the side of softening the new inside leg rather than actively extended the new outside; at least up until you get to the point where you see the overdamped suspension effect where the legs never fully extend :).
Recently I asked one of the examiners who evaluated me in my last certification exam (PSIA-E years ago) about this shift. My question was if I took the exam today and flexed the new inside leg to release, staying low between turns, instead of extending the new outside leg, had the thinking shifted and would I pass. He said yes. But I got the sense that he was not interested in discussing how this shift came about. Perhaps that was because the issue is still up in the air.
 
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....Someone called you a unicorn for having a rare but presumably valuable concept. Does this actually work??? I don't see why not but I am not an instructor.

Railroad tracks on day 2, why the heck not?....
Clarification: the unicorn in question is not @Chris V. It's the terrain that safely supports teaching a beginner to carve in the way he describes. Such terrain is difficult to find in east coast mountains.
 

François Pugh

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Clarification: the unicorn in question is not @Chris V. It's the terrain that safely supports teaching a beginner to carve in the way he describes. Such terrain is difficult to find in east coast mountains.
The uncrowded conditions that would make a lot of terrain safe enough, given the skill level, are are even harder to find.
 

Yo Momma

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Uphill ski == brains, downhill ski == brawn. Both are necessary.
True! :beercheer: But the hard part is teaching your body to flip that script and learn to make your uphill ski = Brawn and your downhill ski = Brains (less wgt on it while continuing to use it to manage your desired turn radius) . That's where you learn to do everything on either ski. I'm talking going fwd on 3D snow. Then while mastering that, practice the Brawn vs Brains/ Uphill ski vs Downhill ski and reversal all in Switch skiing mode. Then add to that, while Switch maintain your chest open to the uphill ski while turning in the same direction, then turn your skis in the opposite direction. When you do this properly, your downhill ski will be fwd and your uphill ski back behind you. It's technically backwards from how you're supposed to ski Switch. Talk about a brain tease. Those exercises are hard, but send your brain into auto mode when the snow gets deep and/or the terrain is gnarly.

Here's an example I've run into where these types of exercises come in handy. When you're in tight eastern woods for example, skiing unmarked single track mtn bike trails...or like the Bench trails at Stowe that go down to the Notch Rd. or the Bruce trail offshoots that end down at the Matterhorn(yes I know... the ski patrol aspect of this is questionable but it's what we do up here for fun when the regular slopes get crowded w/ tourists... Sorry :decisions: ) anyway, moving on.... one ski hits a root, rock , rut or stump (or even a death cookie on an open trail) and is momentarily taken out of commission and/or spins you around... especially just before or worse, just after a dropoff... in order to maintain control during that microsec, which could potentially mean avoiding an injury, you need to be able to completely manage on the other ski, before you hit a tree, boulder, or something else in your activated field. Been there, done that... sometimes rips and tears in clothing or it could be much worse. I have no shame in saying I've hugged a tree or three to save my Black Azz from further damage! :crash:There's usually a "No Pride" policy in tight woods. Anything that gets you out safely, is Good! But those incidents do make for good stories later in the Bar!... and is why here in the NEK we always keep a healthy supply of duct tape at the ready!... and probably why Hill Farmstead, Foley Brothers and Heady Topper beers are so STRONG! They double as pain killers! The ambient painkiller quotient ramps up when you ski and/or are in the gondola w/ Organic Farmers... even if you don't partake! THIS is why you need both skis in AUTO mode at all times! LOL Essentially meaning that here, you need to be able to fully activate either ski at any moment Fwd/Switch/Uphill/Downhill/Brains/Brawn doesn't matter. Both skis require a full degree of input. The hard part for most learning this type of terrain is deprogramming the "traditional" framework of what is taught. The absolute hardest part being Ego management of Type A's. PS- Shhhh don't tell any instructors I said any of this. I'll deny it! This tape will self destruct is 5 sec..... :beercheer:
 
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JESinstr

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When I took my LII skiing exam success depended on the skier lengthening the new outside ski to lift the CoM up and over the skis. This has been the major recognizable difference between PMTS and all other teaching systems, and HH has made a very big deal of it when criticizing them. PSIA has made the shift as well, but PSIA teaching has not been as insistent on a single way to initiate turns as HH has, at least not while I've been instructing.
There's definitely a lack of clear direction here, at least among certain PSIA-E examiners. When I did my L3 teaching exam I worked on this as a focus with my group as half the group, in which I was the only one who had actually passed the L3 ski exam at that point, had massive extension moves at initiation. During our private debrief right after my segment there was an unusually lively discussion about whether focusing on softening the new inside leg vs actively extended the new outside leg was more correct with each examiner taking a dfferent side; it didn't last too long but the ETS person who was with them told me later that there was a more extended conversation in private during the scoring process. In any case they liked my teaching style enough that it didn't matter, but certainly the first time I've encountered a "public" disagreement like that in an exam. My experience in general though is that most ed staff are definitely more on the side of softening the new inside leg rather than actively extended the new outside; at least up until you get to the point where you see the overdamped suspension effect where the legs never fully extend :).

Recently I asked one of the examiners who evaluated me in my last certification exam (PSIA-E years ago) about this shift. My question was if I took the exam today and flexed the new inside leg to release, staying low between turns, instead of extending the new outside leg, had the thinking shifted and would I pass. He said yes. But I got the sense that he was not interested in discussing how this shift came about. Perhaps that was because the issue is still up in the air.
Happy Thanksgiving!

It's fascinating that this is being discussed as an either/or situation. IMO this is fundamentally a skills issue, specifically to the topic of this thread. How, when and where we begin and build the edging process is crucial to the resultant shape of the turn.

Moreover, it is a progression issue. Shortening the inside leg is an enabler for the carving function of the outside ski. It allows for a more compact transitional process. Outside leg extension (forward and over the outside ski) puts focus on an end-to-end carving process. IMO it is more of a pure yet lengthy transition.

Shiffrin's (Burke Mtn) "Get over it" Video shows a great drill for creating an end-to-end carving process initiated by movement to a centered BOS and then executing a solid and reliable edge building process. It's not that this is the way we have to ski, but rather if you can't execute this drill, you don't yet have the skill level needed to ski at elite levels.

 
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markojp

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Happy Thanksgiving!

It's fascinating that this is being discussed as an either/or situation.

My thought exactly.... "inside leg shortening, or outside lengthening?"
"Yes" is pretty much our division's answer. :roflmao:

I have no idea what PSIA-E has got going on, but I'm really happy not to be there. Seems sometimes organizations need to be reminded that more trees make a forest, and fewer tend to become fixtures on manicured properties whose sole purpose is providing grumpy old men the opportunity to waive angry sticks at people.
 

Tony S

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My thought exactly.... "inside leg shortening, or outside lengthening?"
"Yes" is pretty much our division's answer. :roflmao:

I have no idea what PSIA-E has got going on, but I'm really happy not to be there. Seems sometimes organizations need to be reminded that more trees make a forest, and fewer tend to become fixtures on manicured properties whose sole purpose is providing grumpy old men the opportunity to waive angry sticks at people.
Not enough snow.
 

geepers

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PSIA, on the other hand, for years promoted "extend to release."

Just to avoid confusion probably need to note that Lorenz is not advocating "extend to release". He does say he uses pressure on the inside leg to unbalance against the centripetal forces to allow centrifugal "force" (or inertia) to transfer the skier out of the old turn and into the new. And at that point he softens/shortens the old outside leg to prevent the CoM rising.



On the extension vs retraction thingy..... There's some pretty good skiing happening where there's extension of the old inside leg. Odermatt seems to us it frequently. Here's a great non-racing example. Looks to me like there's plenty of foot tipping.


I do this in tele, much easier than with fixed hell (sic) gear even with inside ski pull back.

The feel is a bit of a kick on the inside ski from an edge increase, remember it is behind/inside my COM, that maybe helps pop the turn around. It is like my inside hip cranks around and helps keep the skis separated.

Not ever done tele so I may be misunderstanding.... however, cranking the hip around sounds like something later in the turn during the shaping phase - (although probably not even then). Lorenz pressing on the inside leg is about initiating the move out of the old turn and into the new. During this phase there's not a lot of ski or hip direction change happening.
 
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breck

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True! :beercheer: But the hard part is teaching your body to flip that script and learn to make your uphill ski = Brawn and your downhill ski = Brains (less wgt on it while continuing to use it to manage your desired turn radius) . That's where you learn to do everything on either ski. I'm talking going fwd on 3D snow. Then while mastering that, practice the Brawn vs Brains/ Uphill ski vs Downhill ski and reversal all in Switch skiing mode. Then add to that, while Switch maintain your chest open to the uphill ski while turning in the same direction, then turn your skis in the opposite direction. When you do this properly, your downhill ski will be fwd and your uphill ski back behind you. It's technically backwards from how you're supposed to ski Switch. Talk about a brain tease. Those exercises are hard, but send your brain into auto mode when the snow gets deep and/or the terrain is gnarly.

Here's an example I've run into where these types of exercises come in handy. When you're in tight eastern woods for example, skiing unmarked single track mtn bike trails...or like the Bench trails at Stowe that go down to the Notch Rd. or the Bruce trail offshoots that end down at the Matterhorn(yes I know... the ski patrol aspect of this is questionable but it's what we do up here for fun when the regular slopes get crowded w/ tourists... Sorry :decisions: ) anyway, moving on.... one ski hits a root, rock , rut or stump (or even a death cookie on an open trail) and is momentarily taken out of commission and/or spins you around... especially just before or worse, just after a dropoff... in order to maintain control during that microsec, which could potentially mean avoiding an injury, you need to be able to completely manage on the other ski, before you hit a tree, boulder, or something else in your activated field. Been there, done that... sometimes rips and tears in clothing or it could be much worse. I have no shame in saying I've hugged a tree or three to save my Black Azz from further damage! :crash:There's usually a "No Pride" policy in tight woods. Anything that gets you out safely, is Good! But those incidents do make for good stories later in the Bar!... and is why here in the NEK we always keep a healthy supply of duct tape at the ready!... and probably why Hill Farmstead, Foley Brothers and Heady Topper beers are so STRONG! They double as pain killers! The ambient painkiller quotient ramps up when you ski and/or are in the gondola w/ Organic Farmers... even if you don't partake! THIS is why you need both skis in AUTO mode at all times! LOL Essentially meaning that here, you need to be able to fully activate either ski at any moment Fwd/Switch/Uphill/Downhill/Brains/Brawn doesn't matter. Both skis require a full degree of input. The hard part for most learning this type of terrain is deprogramming the "traditional" framework of what is taught. The absolute hardest part being Ego management of Type A's. PS- Shhhh don't tell any instructors I said any of this. I'll deny it! This tape will self destruct is 5 sec..... :beercheer:
This is exactly how I think it works. You drill, you train and all hell breaks loose on the race course, woods or life. I have definitely done an entire high-g turn on the inside ski tele with a bent knee with the down hill ski messed up, doing its own thing, having an affair with a rock or whatever...and come around to the next turn just fine.
 

breck

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Not enough snow.
In the RC model glider community, we call it grumpy pilot syndrome. Too cold to fly, been a long winter, people just get cranky around April every year--not to say that all the info, cranky or not, has not been hugely useful. Remember, "up elevator".
 

breck

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Me yakking about the tele turn above but I can't get the quoting working right for context.


I do this in tele, much easier than with fixed hell (sic) gear even with inside ski pull back.

The feel is a bit of a kick on the inside ski from an edge increase, remember it is behind/inside my COM, that maybe helps pop the turn around. It is like my inside hip cranks around and helps keep the skis separated.



Not ever done tele so I may be misunderstanding.... however, cranking the hip around sounds like something later in the turn during the shaping phase - (although probably not even then). Lorenz pressing on the inside leg is about initiating the move out of the old turn and into the new. During this phase there's not a lot of ski or hip direction change happening.

This hip thing has me confused in all honesty. My lil' tele-whip finish with a bit of an inside edge increase to the inside ski happens because it just feels good.

But I am fascinated by any turn advantage, in SL, that might be afforded by having an uphill ski back/behind on edge change?
 
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Just to avoid confusion probably need to note that Lorenz is not advocating "extend to release". He does say he uses pressure on the inside leg to unbalance against the centripetal forces to allow centrifugal "force" (or inertia) to transfer the skier out of the old turn and into the new. And at that point he softens/shortens the old outside leg to prevent the CoM rising.....
Clarification: According to geepers in post #216, Lorenz says there are several ways to release, and that he uses the one we are discussing now. That short extension followed by flexion of the new inside leg, the release that doesn't lift him tall, is necessary when the hip is close to the snow.

I think at the point when I wrote that I thought the words were from HH. I've never seen HH write that an old outside leg extension is ever needed (which is odd), so my point was about HH. But we don't need to be talking about him in this thread. It just came up as an aside upthread.
 
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geepers

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Clarification: According to geepers in post #216, Lorenz says there are several ways to release, and that he uses the one we are discussing now. That short extension followed by flexion of the new inside leg, the release that doesn't lift him tall, is necessary when the hip is close to the snow.

I think at the point when I wrote that I thought the words were from HH. I've never seen HH write that an old outside leg extension is ever needed (which is odd), so my point was about HH. But we don't need to be talking about him in this thread. It just came up as an aside upthread.

Kind of puzzling what folk who get their hip on the snow, with huge shortening of the inside leg, are supposed to do other than (at some point before transition) extend that leg. Otherwise it sure would be challenging when the CoM crosses the skis.


As an extension of your OP like to get a little more DIRT on tipping:
1. When/where in the turn do folk tip their respective feet?
2. How fast/hard/far do they tip?
3. How long do they continue tipping (or hold it at some set level)?
 
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