Tipping the foot inside the boot first - why?

[Chris V.]

1. When/where in the turn do folk tip their respective feet?

1. I start tipping as a continuation of the release, so that's right in the initiation. Leading with the new inside foot, with the object of getting simultaneous tipping of both feet. It might be more inside foot dominant in moguls, if I'm succeeding in being dynamic.

2. How fast/hard/far do they tip?

2. The immediate effect of tipping is to create what's commonly called knee angulation. Allowing the action to move up the chain results in hip angulation, although that also requires deliberate action of the muscles surrounding the hip joints. I want to maintain the muscular tension from foot tipping no matter what, but the amount of knee angulation that I want to create, and the mix between knee and hip angulation, likely changes depending on the style of turn I want to create. High energy GS turns would need more hip angulation, due to the strong posture needed to balance against the strong forces generated. If making race type slalom turns, I want the quick changes to edge angle I can get from relying heavily on knee angulation.

I've been finding that carrying knee angulation too far can block the ability to achieve a high degree of upper-lower body (rotational) separation. So that's a reason to limit it. Also, in most situations free skiing, I probably want to have some range of knee angulation held in reserve, so as to have it available for making fine adjustments, and for increasing angulation in the finishing phase, to set up a dynamic release into the next turn.

Two days ago, I was in a training session, in which at one point the trainer set a task of suddenly increasing foot tipping mid-turn. The effect of this can be powerful. It was interesting to see that a number of the participants, otherwise pretty good skiers, had quite a hard time doing this, a good indication of how many skiers have poorly developed foot tipping control, and probably poorly developed mobility in the subtalar joints.

3. How long do they continue tipping (or hold it at some set level)?

3. The answer to this depends on how you define foot tipping, which may be ambiguous. The foot can't actually move far at all inside a stiff boot. The foot can, however, change shape when bearing weight, putting it into a more anatomically advantageous form for transmitting forces between the skier's body and the snow. This amount of movement, too, quickly maxes out. But the application of those forces can be used to create varying amounts of knee angulation. So again, I would seek to maintain the tipping inside the boots to facilitate creating angulation, throughout all phases of the turn until it comes time to release the edges.

 

[Rod9301]

What's knee angulation?

 

[LiquidFeet]

This thread just keeps delivering.

 

[Chris V.]

What's knee angulation?

People may have different words for it--it's the move you make like this:

Stand on your skis across a gentle slope, not sliding forward or back. Tip both feet into the slope. Allow mobility in the hip joints and subtalar joints (down under the ankles). Let the knees tip in toward the hill, but hold the hips vertically over the feet. Balance with the upper body as needed.

 

[LiquidFeet]

@Rod9301, to understand knee angulation, watch the knees in this video. Pivot slips are a drill that isolates knee angulation. There's no hip angulation.
This graphic is from our own @Bob Barnes.

Pivot Slips

Knee angulation also happens in free skiing.
The two images below come from Rick Schnellman. https://www.yourskicoach.com/glossary/SkiGlossary/Angulation.html

Hip angulation is different from knee angulation.

Here's another shot showing knee angulation. From our own @razie.

Angulation

The skier below is inclined with almost no angulation. From Greg Gurshman.

Inclined To Win (Ski) - Ski Instructor

Carving clean GS turns has been the ultimate goal of both racers and coaches for at least two decades. It is a common knowledge that in order to carve, a racer needs to roll the ski on edge by executing a succession of technical elements generally described as edging. The racers of the past...

youcanski.com

 

[JESinstr]

@LiquidFeet
Good explanations above although I will point out that Rick's Photos are more of a "Final Form" demonstration for illustrative purposes and the other two are "in action" photos.

And to that point, the two "in action" photos show independent leg action and varied degrees of edge angle between the inside and outside ski.

1. I start tipping as a continuation of the release, so that's right in the initiation. Leading with the new inside foot, with the object of getting simultaneous tipping of both feet. It might be more inside foot dominant in moguls, if I'm succeeding in being dynamic.

With the understanding that both tipping and inside leg shortening are key to turn development, do you agree with Chris that simultaneous tipping of both feet and establishing the inside foot as lead takes priority over inside leg shortening? Also how does velocity influence that decision?

Thanks

 

[Rod9301]

There's no knee angulation, is just the angle the pictures are taken. Knees do not bend sideways.
A shame that this myth of will around.

Maybe internet tibia rotation coupled with knee bending

 

[Sledhead]

James, Oh … Duh! I may have forgotten the actual OP title and do not use the word “tipping” for what happens inside the boot, hence my confusion. I just refer to it as leverage as we are talking about such a minuscule amount of movement. Perhaps just a tweak. Though, a few millimeters of movement under the shell replaces the need for significantly more movement up the chain. And what a better question it is than what I originally thought. The first mention of timing for a motor pattern in over 300 posts. I can correct for that, a corollary of two aspects of tipping that are, indeed, inextricably linked. I would agree with you that tweaking that leverage happens quickly and early. For me, that is the very first input to the turn from which everything else follows. For small turns because there is no time for anything else but also for long turns as well. I would not think that any interim state of inside the boot foot tipping leverage to be valuable because the leverage is not created until that state of contact has been met. That foot to boot leverage is fully established right away and not drawn out like many of the other gross motor movements throughout the turn. Ultimately I think that because the foot to shell relationship for every skier is so individual, a skier should do what it takes inside the boot to be able to tip the skis exactly how they choose. A choice of which is most likely the reason for the timing of this “tipping inside the boot”. It is not for the movement of the subtalar but rather that of its resultant tipping of the ski itself that initiates the overall DIRT for the remaining movements of the turn. However, I think there is a possibility that the timing and efficacy of tipping “inside” the boot may be slower or non-existent for those who may be boot challenged in one way or another.


Geepers, it still sounds like you are commingling need with intent. I might agree with it as a diagnostic indicator. However, I would ask you, the indicator of exactly what? A need? A need of what and why? After identifying that, how then would you suggest a skier would exactly go about filling that need? The Rumpelstiltskin principle of ski instruction: If it is something that can be visually identified and named, it tends to become instructed as an input.


Rod9301, knee angulation may be the most distinguished of the above related principle as it is a visual correlation often incorrectly described as an output from the knee and, ultimately, an instructional directive. Instructors would see “knee angulation”, that of which does not fundamentally exist, and then teach it to students without realizing or mentioning that it represents movement from the hips and ankles, not the knee. Rumpelstiltskin himself may have invented the term knee angulation, otherwise spinning common locks of hair into pure instructional gold. However, in this case, I think that it is clear that Chris is making an effort to speak in the language most here will understand when he says: “commonly called knee angulation“. I tend to agree with his posts on a fundamental basis. It is better to be a stickler about fundamental meaning rather than language, terminology and semantics. Though, you are spot on: “Knee angulation”, what is that?


Once upon a time, long ago in a land far away there were evil little ski instructors who lived under the bridges that led to the mountains. They would rob travelers and tourists with deceit and trickery as they would cross over the bridge. They were told that if they were to come underneath the bridge, they would be showered with the valuable riches of expert skiing. However, once they got down under the bridge, it was suddenly dark, damp and cold while a sudden breeze of reality would put a shiver down their spine. The shiny teeth of the smiling instructors would sparkle with the glimmer of fear shedding from the eyes of the tourists as they relinquished their gold and silver on the spot. In return, they were then given a stone from the river that was cast with a magic spell that gave it immense value to all who possessed it. They were then allowed to escape with their lives knowing that they would be back with pockets full for the taking once again. The tourists would even send their friends to those very bridges where they supposedly acquired such valuable stones. Occasionally you will see a skier with hands busy juggling many stones from these rivers on their way down the mountain.

 

[Chris V.]

With the understanding that both tipping and inside leg shortening are key to turn development, do you agree with Chris that simultaneous tipping of both feet and establishing the inside foot as lead takes priority over inside leg shortening?

Do I have to choose just one?

 

[JESinstr]

Do I have to choose just one?

Well, when you are talking priorities, unfortunately yes.

But here is where I am coming from. If I am doing low velocity railroad tracks down a mild slope (like on a runout), the priority for my inside foot and leg will be more on tipping in support of the edge angle of my outside ski. If I am hauling down a slope doing GS turns, I place a priority on shortening my inside leg so as to enable building outside ski edge angle and expeditiously directing pressure to the outside ski.

 

[Scruffy]

Well, when you are talking priorities, unfortunately yes.

But here is where I am coming from. If I am doing low velocity railroad tracks down a mild slope (like on a runout), the priority for my inside foot and leg will be more on tipping in support of the edge angle of my outside ski. If I am hauling down a slope doing GS turns, I place a priority on shortening my inside leg so as to enable building outside ski edge angle and expeditiously directing pressure to the outside ski.

Right. And isn't the problem with answering the tipping questions: how long to continue, how fast, how far to tip, etc..., is that the answers are contextual to the intent.

 

[geepers]

I start tipping as a continuation of the release, so that's right in the initiation.

Good post, Chris.

Did want the bit clarified: when you say initiation did you mean when you wish to start getting out of the existing turn or when you engage the edges for the new turn?

Rightly or wrongly in long turns I've taken to tipping the feet in the boots as the body crosses the skis (where both legs are flexed and there's little pressure).

There's no knee angulation, is just the angle the pictures are taken. Knees do not bend sideways.
A shame that this myth of will around.

Maybe internet tibia rotation coupled with knee bending

AFAIK knees aren't intended to bend sideways. Knee angulation == internet tibia (and femur) rotation coupled with knee bending.

Geepers, it still sounds like you are commingling need with intent. I might agree with it as a diagnostic indicator. However, I would ask you, the indicator of exactly what? A need? A need of what and why? After identifying that, how then would you suggest a skier would exactly go about filling that need? The Rumpelstiltskin principle of ski instruction: If it is something that can be visually identified and named, it tends to become instructed as an input.

Probably if I knew the answer to that paragraph I wouldn't need to ask questions. But, really, is your intent here clarity or obscurity?

Let's just say we are on the hill and you've just skied down to us demo-ing some turns. We ask you what are doing with your feet inside your boots and when do you do it (because activity feet is not easily observed). Question is that simple.

they were then given a stone from the river that was cast with a magic spell that gave it immense value to all who possessed it.

No idea about magic spells but outside ski pressure is already available on The Dark Dad Web.

 

[geepers]

Right. And isn't the problem with answering the tipping questions: how long to continue, how fast, how far to tip, etc..., is that the answers are contextual to the intent.

It's ok to provide the context as well! Pick your favorite turn type.

 

[Chris V.]

Did want the bit clarified: when you say initiation did you mean when you wish to start getting out of the existing turn or when you engage the edges for the new turn?

I suppose I mean the "initiation phase," considered to begin at the point the skis are flat to the snow. Up to that point, maybe the action could be called "untipping." I believe this happens largely as a result of forces that the ski-snow interaction generates, but maybe there's some active tipping toward the new turn needed to make it happen fast enough. Maybe someone with a CARV device could test it and tell us?

internet tibia (and femur) rotation coupled with knee bending.

Sic, LOL!

 

[Chris V.]

But here is where I am coming from. If I am doing low velocity railroad tracks down a mild slope (like on a runout), the priority for my inside foot and leg will be more on tipping in support of the edge angle of my outside ski. If I am hauling down a slope doing GS turns, I place a priority on shortening my inside leg so as to enable building outside ski edge angle and expeditiously directing pressure to the outside ski.

I hear you. At low velocity, I expect adequate shortening of the inside leg will happen naturally. In those haul-ass GS turns, it's a vigorous movement requiring conscious input or considerable training of the subconscious. And the Greg Gurshman article linked just upthread highlights the point that in high velocity, dynamic turns, angulation gets delayed, to allow inclination alone to send the COM far enough inside the turn, early in the turns.

From an instructional perspective, wouldn't the focus change depending on whether one was teaching novice skiers, or coaching talented, athletic young racers?

 

[JESinstr]

I hear you. At low velocity, I expect adequate shortening of the inside leg will happen naturally. In those haul-ass GS turns, it's a vigorous movement requiring conscious input or considerable training of the subconscious. And the Greg Gurshman article linked just upthread highlights the point that in high velocity, dynamic turns, angulation gets delayed, to allow inclination alone to send the COM far enough inside the turn, early in the turns.

From an instructional perspective, wouldn't the focus change depending on whether one was teaching novice skiers, or coaching talented, athletic young racers?

Absolutely. This is a point I am constantly trying to make. However, conscious and intentional shortening of the inside leg is a critical learned skill at all levels of skiing IMO. It's what forces the skier to dynamically balance on and direct pressure to the inside edge of the outside ski. I think that without this training, skiers at the beginner to intermediate levels, use the inside ski as a safety valve vs a turn enabler.

So why do we initiate with angulation at low velocity and use inclination at higher velocity? Because at low velocity, we are using our weight (gravity) to bend the ski while keeping upright balance. At high velocity advanced skiers have the experience, ability and confidence to preemptively align our mass with the velocity driven Centripetal force to come.

This is also why I think of carving as the process of converting straight line travel into circular travel. No matter what the velocity, the process (in terms of ski/surface interaction) is the same. The movement patterns however, are different.

 

[Chris V.]

It's what forces the skier to dynamically balance on and direct pressure to the inside edge of the outside ski. I think that without this training, skiers at the beginner to intermediate levels, use the inside ski as a safety valve vs a turn enabler.

Oh, they do. Whatever it takes to cure them of that.

 

[LiquidFeet]

@LiquidFeet
....With the understanding that both tipping and inside leg shortening are key to turn development, do you agree with Chris that simultaneous tipping of both feet and establishing the inside foot as lead takes priority over inside leg shortening? Also how does velocity influence that decision?

Thanks

My answer depends on what you mean by "takes priority."

Back when I was teaching beginner and lower intermediate adults, I would tell them to "bend a leg." I wouldn't demo at first, I'd just tell them what to do and let them try it to see what happens. Sometimes I'd have first day beginners try it sliding backwards in a wedge first, if their fear level was low.

I skipped the ankle-tipping inside the boot because (a) the lesson was often so short that I had no time to address additional movements and that one would do the job. (b) Students couldn't see my foot demonstrating tipping at the ankle while it was inside the boot, so all they had was my verbal explanation. When I tried teaching this first, they never understood enough to consistently follow through. (c) When the fact that ankle-tipping is a tiny movement which needs to be followed by other things (lower leg shortening and tilting for instance) to get a round turn started, it became obvious to me that ankle-tipping wasn't so important for this level of skier to learn. Others may disagree because they have found a way to teach it to beginners and awkward novices. I'm hoping some will discuss this issue.

Teaching those other things was something that I did once the student figured out how to start a turn with just the simple movement of new inside leg-bending. This is quite successful if the skier is in a wedge. Telling them to "shorten the leg" often got the follow-up question of how you can make your leg shorter, so I didn't use that phrase with these lower level skiers. Choice of words is so important.

However, sometimes I would teach "tip the ski" at the very beginning of these lessons - right ski for right turns, left ski for left turns. That directive would sometimes produce both ankle-tipping and lower leg tilting. I would demo tipping the ski while standing stationary, then they would try it stationary. Then I would demo "going bowlegged" as an additional movement to make sure everyone in the group was tilting the lower leg. This coupled with "tip the ski" was guaranteed to get the new inside ski tipped and it got them eliminating the stem entry that so many skiers have. It didn't produce carved turns with pencil-thin lines in the snow, as some fear, because these skiers were not yet able to balance well enough on parallel skis nor were they able to establish a platform angle sufficient to produce any carving, and no RRtrx.

I rarely got the opportunity to teach skiers who were able to enter a turn almost simultaneously, with almost perfectly parallel skis, with almost equal edge angles. But when I did, that's when I taught ankle-tipping inside the boot, and the other things one can do with the new inside ski/foot/leg to control the ski and shape the turn better. That was a joy to teach.

So I've answered your "priority" question with what I've chosen to teach first, really first, to beginners who know nothing, and lower intermediates who know not as much as they think.

I am interested in how others answer this prioritizing question too.

 

[Chris V.]

Well, inside foot tipping requires a healthy amount of leg flexion, and requires bringing the inside foot in much closer than wedge skiers are used to, so these things all sort of go together, and I would acknowledge how important the flexion and narrowing are. Those can be the hardest things to coax a novice addicted to the permawedge into doing. (Can someone get me a cracking the whip emoji to insert here?)

 

[geepers]

And the Greg Gurshman article linked just upthread highlights the point that in high velocity, dynamic turns, angulation gets delayed, to allow inclination alone to send the COM far enough inside the turn, early in the turns.

This could go in the tip lead thread as well.